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This is a good post, thank you very much, Marc. I do understand the need to keep focus on the most profitable part of your business. However, I believe ListPro could be made much more profitable, if it had just a few more features.
Could you please share with us what features _are_ planned for 5.1 ?
Item level sync is not high on my list but I know it is on many other people's. However, I'd imagine word wrap and saved custom filters would make it to the top 3 requests ? There's at least one bug, too - the way ends of text lines are cut off in bulleted notes on PPC. I wonder if we should start a "Top Three ListPro Feature requests" topic here - it would be very interesting to see the results.
Here's mine:
#1 Word wrap in Item field
#2 Saved custom views (filters + sort, or at least just filters)
#3 Ability to have different fonts on PC and PPC, or better else ability to zoom, especially in the Notes field.
Your response is incisive and understandable. Bread and butter stuff aside, is your bit of technology devoid of innovative customer responsiveness? The adage "the only constant about change is change" holds true today as it held when it was first put forward.
Your current products are well received, should you not spread/increase your resources to attract a different sub-group? With excellent products come more demand the "Oliver Twist" effect.
Do look again at your processes, you may just find a bit more slack to fit Listpro in. Good products good endeavour, excellent products excellent endeavour.
Thanks everyone. I'm glad that I could at least shed some light on what is happening behind the scenes!
Originally Posted by Amamba
Could you please share with us what features _are_ planned for 5.1 ?
I'm afraid I can't. With only a few exceptions (the eWallet 6.1 update coming out this year) we very VERY rarely tip our hand, even for minor feature updates. The reason is that we get copied ALL the time by the competition. When we make a change our competitors are seldom far behind. As a result we tend to stay very tight lipped about our plans.
We do have a beta group though, and while ListPro isn't out them right now, we can typically say a lot more about our plans there. You can sign up to be considered here Ilium Software Beta Testing Signup Form .
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Item level sync is not high on my list but I know it is on many other people's.
Nothing else comes close. This is a HUGE request (many times more requests than any other) and a major change. Think about just how unique individual ListPro lists can be and you get an idea about the level of complexity we're looking at for item level sync. It is probably the next thing we'll work on. THIS I can mention because honestly, in today's software world, adding that kind of synching is more of a bug fix than a feature. People simply expect it to be there.
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However, I'd imagine word wrap
This one isn't UNpopular but it doesn't have nearly the support of say Item Sync or (before we added it) Notes Pane editing. In fact the top requests are to port the application to other platforms (Blackberry, iPhone, WebApp).
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and saved custom filters would make it to the top 3 requests ?
Actually, while a very cool feature, this isn't a popular request. Only a handful of people have expressed an interest in this one.
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There's at least one bug, too - the way ends of text lines are cut off in bulleted notes on PPC.
That's in 5.1.
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I wonder if we should start a "Top Three ListPro Feature requests" topic here - it would be very interesting to see the results.
Thanks to ListPro for the feedback. Let me see if I can sum it up:
On ListPro's priority at Illium:
"The reality, however, is that ListPro doesn't keep us in business."
On adding features:
"Little changes aren't little...I think many people would be amazed at just how complex the simplest thing becomes when you really start to measure the impact it has on a piece of software."
On why updates and releases take so long:
"Poor ListPro. It got the shaft for a long time, I know. When we did finally get back to it we embarked upon a project of epic proportions (all the notes pane changes...this was an enormous update.) So yes, you had to wait a long time."
On releasing updates:
"EVERY release is a big deal, and this also means that every release is EXPENSIVE. So for us, at least, a "minor release" is still a big deal."
On fixing stuff:
"...sometimes I just have to say "We aren't going to do this yet." All I can say is that "I'm sorry".
On new features:
"They are on "the list" but at this point, the majority of the users just aren't calling for that feature, MS doesn't require it, and other features are much more urgent in the big picture."
On sharing future features:
"I'm afraid I can't."
On adding item level sync:
"This is a HUGE request (many times more requests than any other) and a major change."
On adding requested features to the WinMobile version:
"In fact the top requests are to port the application to other platforms (Blackberry, iPhone, WebApp)."
In other words, and correct me if I'm wrong, "don't hold your breath."
In other words, and correct me if I'm wrong, "don't hold your breath."
That's my take away too! So, we either continue working with it AS-IS with no real expectations that anything will change for a great long time or . . . ?
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Although I thought the initial Ilium post was strictly business oriented I could agree with most of what was said, from a business point of view. However in the followup from Ilium I agree that it sounds like even when they finally divert their attention from eWallet (the big money maker) to List Pro (the loser orphan) it will be a long time before some changes are made, which is in the Ilium tradition and the changes on their radar screen don't even register on mine or apparently anyone else's, at least not those on this forum. If item level sync is the big change for 5.1 I'm going to start looking elsewhere.
. . . and the changes on their radar screen don't even register on mine or apparently anyone else's, at least not those on this forum. If item level sync is the big change for 5.1 I'm going to start looking elsewhere.
I agree, I wonder who they query when they create and prioritize their ListPro update list. It does not seem they ask their current users....what's the deal with item level syncing anyway? Is it really that hard to sync an entire list? [I think not].
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For me, the strong points of Listpro, when compared to other similar programs, are:
1) Startup speed and responsiveness
2) Filters
3) Custom columns
4) Outline view (vs PhatNotes) - however it's rather hard to use on PDA screen, due to the way it's laid out.
5) Hyperlink support - although most other apps have been providing it for a while, too.
Where some other programs win:
a) Outlook integration
b) better laid out, more customizable, easier to use interface (this includes such things as toolbar buttons for quick command access, zoom ability so that text that's easy to read on PC doesn't look huge on PPC, outline that allows reading more than 2 levels deep without need to scroll for a mile, wordwrap and many other features that are, apparently, such a big deal to implement ;) ).
c) Better export / import
Now, for just a simple list manager, there's plenty of free programs doing same thing just as well. The strong points of LP are filters and speed. Unfortunately filters can't be saved and re-applied, and interface has many annoying quirks.
I moved to LP when my previous program of choice, Pocketthinker, went belly up. I could still use it but I was concerned with future compatibility. I evaluated it against PhatNotes, Trenotes, MLO and ADB Idea Library. All had their own strong points. All, except ADBIL, are being actively developed, much more so than LP. LP won me over because it was fast, faster than e.g. Trenotes, and had at least the features I considered absolutely essential. However, with the current pace of development, it risks being overtaken by other programs in its niche rather quickly. For instance, Natara is busy porting Bonsai over to WinMobile platform, and this is a very good application.
So, am I going to look elsewhere ? Not right away, but most likely yes, if there's an application that is more useful, in my opinion. Now, mind you, this goes against my habit of picking the right application and sticking with it for years - but in this case, we were, basically, told not to expect much development in the foreseeable future.
Now, I have foremost respect for guys at iLium - don't get me wrong. However, looking at such programs as PhatNotes, Trenotes, etc. that seem to be selling rather well, I can't help but wonder if the "modest profitability" of ListPro (that has had the same "great potential" for years, most of it still not fully realized) has any relation to the snail pace of its development.
Whew. Sounds like I wasn't clear and have been misinterpreted. Let's see what I can do:
Originally Posted by stevenator65
In other words, and correct me if I'm wrong, "don't hold your breath."
You are wrong to a point. A more accurate statement would be:
Don't hold your breath if....
- ...you want a specific feature added. We can't make promises. We make decisions based on what sells and what the most users are looking for.
- ...you want us to give you a hint about what is coming down the pipe. We can't do it. I wish we could!
- ...you want a release schedule as amitious as eWallet's. We are still developing ListPro and will continue to improve and support it. We just can't promise a big new feature set every 6 months.
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List Pro (the loser orphan)
That characterization offends me because I LOVE ListPro and we are working on it. Some products just sell better than others. You invest where you can make profit in both the long term and the short term. eWallet primary and ListPro secondary, sure, but money maker and orphan? No.
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the changes on their radar screen don't even register on mine or apparently anyone else's, at least not those on this forum.
I think you hit it on the head with what you said at the end there. I understand that our plans may or may not match with what you guys are looking for, but we have thousands and thousands of users. MANY of those users contact us every week and all of them have requests. We aren't basing this on loose evidence or gut feeling, but on solid information from a large percentage of our users. The very best thing you can do is email us with what you want.
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If item level sync is the big change for 5.1 I'm going to start looking elsewhere.
We have other plans as well but item level sync is top of the list. As for the program you choose, you need to make the decision that best fits your needs.
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I agree, I wonder who they query when they create and prioritize their ListPro update list. It does not seem they ask their current users....what's the deal with item level syncing anyway?
As I said above, we do ask the current users and the majority of current users want item level synching. True, it seems that some folks here don't see the value but we lose sales over the lack of this functionality, and we get requests for it daily. That isn't an exaggeration. It's the second biggest thing we've EVER gotten requests for (second to notes pane formatting which we added to 5.0.)
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Is it really that hard to sync an entire list? [I think not].
No. The problem is lost changes AND a weak (and sometimes unreliable) sync tool from WMDC and Active Sync. The typical ListPro user wants to add items on their desktop and their mobile without thinking through where they last made changes and whether they synched. Losing all the changes from one side of the program in a sync just isn't acceptable.
So look, we're not abandoning ListPro. In fact it's on a more aggressive release schedule that it was before. I was just being honest that eWallet is our top seller and we HAVE to get that out if we want to have the resources to work on ListPro (and our other titles!) And I also wanted to make clear that as reasonable as a request might be, and as important to someone as it might be, a whole host of things go into the decision making process and in the end, we just can't do it all.
Someone (and I know who it was) once said that the reason TV is so bad these day is the public doesn't know whats involved in making it, so the public can't ask for anything better.
I think there's a similar thing with software. What I might think of as a trivial change may require hours and hours to do, making it very expensive.
But in anycase this Listpro customer appreciates you letting us know whats going on :approve:
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Ditto here. My criticism my appear hars sometimes, but I only criticize the programs I feel are worth the trouble - and there's not that many out there.
I've had my ppc for a year and a half; through this forum I've been amazed by the direct conversations taking place between the software makers and the ppc owners. I don't know that I have experienced that anywhere else. Several software makers respond quickly, directly, and helpfully to the concerns and complaints we post here. And, like Ilium's posts, the answers aren't just marketing buzzwords. I don't own listpro, but I have appreciated the real and direct responses.
Someone (and I know who it was) once said that the reason TV is so bad these day is the public doesn't know whats involved in making it, so the public can't ask for anything better.
I think there's a similar thing with software. What I might think of as a trivial change may require hours and hours to do, making it very expensive.
But in anycase this Listpro customer appreciates you letting us know whats going on :approve:
We all know what's involved in making software. I bet a very high percentage of people on this forum have at least some programming experience. This difficulty in making changes doesn't seem to affect other companies' software to the degree it affects ListPro.
ListPro was upgraded to v5 last August. They upgraded to 4.1 in December of 2005. So the upgrade cycle seems to be once every 1.75 years. Likewise, Pocket Informant released v6 in July '05. They released v7 August '06 and in January of this year released v8. Plus they've had mini-releases in between. I have never experienced bugs in their software.
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