catspaw

Ok, i can't believe this, but after experimenting with a couple of different bluetooth headsets and my new ipaq h6365/6315 I've come to the startling conclusion. We've all bean deceived!!! this thing completely SUCKS when it comes Bluetooth headsets to the point that they're not even really viable. I don't know what people where thinking when they reviewed these things.

Of the major problems i've experienced:

* The Unit will occasionaly just drop the bluetooth connection, or the connection will lockup, while i'm standing write beside the unit. I was talking to someone, and my unit went to sleep/off and it just droped my phone call, for no reason - great way to make a good impression.

* If the unit goes to sleep (ie off) and then you get a phone call the unit comes back on, right? yep thats what its suppose to do, but do you think the bluetooth connection will be ok? ususally not, it'll either work after the unit has been on for about 45 seconds, in wich case you will have missed the call if you tried to answer it with the headset, OR it won't come on at all, period! you have to turn the bluetooth Off, then turn it ON, and then resink the headset - comeon i mean wtf?? If you leave the unit off for more then 15mintues, you can forget about answering any incoming calls with your headset >

* other small things i won't get into

So am i doing something wrong? is there a setting or somethin? I played with all the settings i could think of and still the same problem.
I've tested this thing with three headsets - jabra 250, motorola 810, HMH-60- same deal with all of them.

Bottom line is that i really wish people had tested this feature better in there review before giving the feature the thumbs up, because there is no way i would have bought it if i'd known before hand. Would have bought a 4150 and a bluetooth headset & phone. Basically this unit doesn't even come close, not even in the same ballpark to the phone capabilities of a good bluetooth headset & phone. (those of you that've had them will know what i'm talking about) - real, real, shame

Sorry for the rant

slashlos

ouch! sounds like a v1 product;-(? but i see similar BT drop off when using a BT GPS when the PPC sleeps; you need to connect first then navigate; maybe there is a option to keep BT on or connect before answer?

__________________
/los "I was a teenage net-random"

catspaw

Ok, now that I’ve calmed down, I’ve rationalized the problem, and it is a huge problem, that any competent reviewers should have recognized quite quickly, why they didn't is beyond me.

Here’s the real problem.

1st we have to understand that this unit is both a PDA and a Phone, and that they're not really merged together, rather are still very separate units within the same unit, kind of like two half’s of a brain.

2nd the Bluetooth hardware and software in this unit is completely controlled by the PDA part of the unit.

So when our PDA part of our units are turned off, we leave the Phone Part of our units on. At this stage there is no working Bluetooth connection. Why? because its controlled by the PDA part of the unit, which is off. This results in
a number of problems.

1- if when you receive a call, the PDA part of the unit wakes up, BUT it has to re-initialize the Bluetooth connection, a process that takes at least 45 seconds, if it actually works, which it doesn't for most of the time.

2- another problem, related to the 1st is that Bluetooth doesn't really have the ability to re-initialize, so basically, if you want the Bluetooth to behave with any predictability/reliability, you have to turn the connection OFF every time you turn off the PDA, and turn the connection ON & connect to a device, every time you want to use the Bluetooth. Obviously, in the end this is extremely inconvenient - "ah, ya, could you hold on for minute while, i start my Bluetooth up, and then get it to connect to my..." ever time you have a call, not to mention the inconvenience of having to remember to turn off the Bluetooth, every time you turn of the PDA part of the unit.

NOW to drive home the problem, we compar this to a Proper Cell phone with Bluetooth capabilities (hereinafter BlueCell).
On a BlueCell, all you have to do is turn your phone on, then go through the bluetooth connection procedure to link it to the headset. Then your set for the rest of the week, until either your headset or your phone battery dies. There is no real connection problems, because your Cell, which controls the Bluetooth, stays on, all the time, so there are no re-connection problems,,etc.. the process works relatively flawless.

SO if HP, or what ever company really designed this unit, had there act together they would have assigned the bluetooth hardware to teh Phone Part of the Unit, and NOT the PDA part of the unit, because in reality 90% of the users of this unit in North America will be using Bluetooth with a headset, and not with a modem, or printer..etc(which would require the bluetooth to be controlled by the PDA part of the unit). And really this Unit is not really capable of true phone duty, in and of itself, with out the use of a headset, because of the shier size, shape and weight of the unit. On a side note, this really is a problem that was created by a lack of understand/communication between the enginears who designed the units hardware with those that designed the units software (aka micros**t) - basicaly thinking that the OS bluetooth software could accomodate the needs of the phone's bluetooth needs, which for reasons i've mentioned above, it can't. Or then again, maybe they knew, possibly even planned - ensuring for future production model improvments

In the end, contrary to all the bs hype out there, this unit is completely NOT suitable for a real business professional, as it does not replace the need for a good cell phone. You can use this thing for light phone duty and personal calls, but there's absolutely no way i can use this thing for business, so really in the end really all I really have is a large, ungainly, slow PDA, albeit with excellent battery power, which i suppose is, inadvertently, is only saving grace.

Here how i would have rated this Unit for a business professional:
Pros:
*Capable of very light phone duty (true world phone - not that it matters)
* excellent battery power - its only real saving grace
* Full gamit of wireless capabilities
* Adequate processing power for business applications - unit was responsive enough for everyday use.

Cons:
* Heavy
* Ungainly - thick, and aerial numb.
* Slow (may not be a problem depending on what you intend to use if for
* No real Bluetooth phone capabilities, contrary to what they would have you believe.
* even if you use it as a phone, the ringer volume is pathetic

Rating: 6./10

Assuming you've read this far (big assumption )Would higly suggest for those of you that really need to use your cell phone a lot, that you not consider this unit a replacement for it, cause its not. So this may not be the unit for you, might be better off locking at a treo or just getting a light, thin PDA, and a good bluetooth phone and headset. As a PDA, basically there are lighter, cheaper, better units on the market

enough said?

catspaw

UPDATE:
It would seem that the only real way to use a headset with this unit, is to leave it on all the time, and just turn the display off, not sure what the battery life will be like, time will tell

slashlos

Before I had started onto a PPC [coming from a newton] my friends commented that the things were dead and that I should instead opt for a single unit pda/phone. I recall saying that IMHO, no cell phone was 100% reliable, but I do need a very reliable PDA so I would go the route of having two units [also my phone plan wasn't covered]. I'm glad I did. Maybe a future revision will acknowledge your findings, which appear typical. Just hope for your sake a new version of the o/s from m/s is NOT required ;-)

__________________
/los "I was a teenage net-random"

imported_dennis

Speaking of the 6315 being "of two minds", it would be a big help if the phone part was almost completely isolated from the PDA part except for a transfer pathway for contact data (phone no., etc. ).

Then when the PDA part teleports its tiny mind off to Redmond Dreamland, the phone would continue to work at least for making and receiving calls in dumb phone mode.

akw

Hey.. do you think that v2 of the PDA might be released in the future... hmm.. maybe to fix all those problems... and maybe to upgrade the processor, etc... ?

catspaw

Ya, exactly dennis, the PDA and PHONE should be completly separate, since we all know Micros**t could not build a stable OS to save gate's life, and i don't want my phone crashed, just because the pocket pc os crashed. Case in point, my bluetooth scheme of just turning off the displacy, so the bluetooth would stay on didn't work so well. The 6315 seems to lock up quite a bit when I use bluetooth. Now heres the real lark, when it does lock up, the phone stops working, BUT there is NO outward signs that the pda has lockuped up, everything "appears" ok - the green phone indicator continues to flash, as does the bluetooth indicator - but nothing works, can't get it to turn back on, and it will NOT receive incoming calls - so it might remain like this for hours before you notice - and you missed all your calls!!! Have to perform a soft reset to get it to turn back on. - What BS!!!!

Ok here's another rant - So don't bother reading if you aren't in the mode

Here's another brain dead idea that they came up with - using a standard stereo headphone jack used in standard PDAs, instead of a standard "small" handsfree jack used on most phones - which are we going to use more? the handsfree... and don't bother trying to use the adapter, it just makes the whole contraption bigger and more fragile. Would much rather use an adapter when/if i need stereo headphones, then every time i wan't to make a handsfree call... just plain dopy... here's a great idea, give us both, but if you have to give us one, give us the one we need.... uggg seems like no matter what i do or try, there's no way i can use this thing conviently as a phone... have you tried hefting this thing up to your ear for a 20min call, i'm getting arm cramps

ps - aka - I'd say we're atleast 2 years away from the perfect pda/phone combo, more like 4 years (at least for north america). Most of the Pocket PC/Phone's out there will have similar problems to verying degree's, just different specs & formfactors.

sporty2k

Hey - I understand your issues and I agree with most of them.

Let me start out with a disclaimer. I work for Microsoft. I'm at a level at which I know, for a fact, that we are not intentionally creating "bugs" so that we can get you to upgrade. That is silly and IMHO adds no value to the forum and personally insults me. We still work really, really, hard - for less than industry average pay because in most cases we love what we do and we love trying to make technology better. Enough said.

I cannot tell you how many people inside of Microsoft that, like you, are screaming for a single convergence device. I, probably like you, cannot for the life of me understand why it takes so long to get it right - I just know that it does. I also know that we won't stop until we get it right and then there will be a new set of "right" requirements. I am constantly bugging the people responsible with questions so as I see yours I will be sure to pass them along as well as the answers.

I just received the device a few weeks ago. My only prior convergence device experience has been to hold the treo 600. All I can say about it is that I love the form factor. I never actually made a call with it so I can't say how well it works. When I first received the 6315 I almost returned it cause it was bigger than I thought. But after a few weeks it doesn't bother me. I don't find it heavy and I love having the extra capabilities of a PDA. I also use it with a bluetooth GPS receiver (belkin) which has help me navigate around the pacific NW flawlessly.

I am really looking forward to the bluetooth headset I just ordered (Nokia HS-3W) and I'll be real disappointed if it operates like you suggest.

catspaw

Just to clerify about Microsoft, not saying they intentionaly build bugs into their software, even though there are to far to many bugs in every MS OS, but then again its a features vs acceptable%ofbugs vs stability vs timetomarket, etc., anyway leaving that aside, In reference to "intentionaly creating" all i was saying was that Hardware manufacturs, such as HP, and every other manufacter bring out improvements in increments to maximize & extend product life. Whats the point in building it perfect right off the bat? from an economic stand point, its just bad busines. You put out products that are good, and then improve on them with each iteration, even when you knew how to build it perfect right off the bat. Basically i was just commenting on the glaring errors in design, that could have been easily avoided, and asking why? The answer is HP though it was good enough, and it was, cause we all bought it, and we'll all use it, untill the next model comes out... They have the tec, and the know how to build it right, they just choose not to. I just think they should have improved on it a bit more then they did.

Anyway, i think dennis had it write - make the phone and the PDA, completely separte, but contained within the same physical device. If my WIndows Mobile OS crashing a couple of times a day, fine, it sucks & i'm not impressed but i can live with it, but when it takes down my phone, and yet gives no outwards signs that anything is wrong, and i miss important calls because of it, THIS, i can't live with.

As for the bluetooth "phone" abilities, it implementation is bad, real bad. If anyone finds a way around some of the problems please let me know.

sporty2k

You know what... i love the rants. The product needs to be improved and I am forwarding on to the right person. If I experience the bluetooth error you are talking about the phone is going back. I'm now wondering if tmobile intentionally did not offer a bluetooth headset special with the phone because of this problem!!! Once I keep it for 30 days I cannot return it.

Anyway...I disagree on your bug remark. If you exclude the security "issues", and we could argue all day on whether or not to call them bugs, i think for the most part there are very few bugs in XP. For the average computer user I would say they seldom experience bugs. there are lots of UI processes that need to be improved though. Sometimes with the messages I see I wonder how in the world I could ever expect my Mom to use a computer.

Also, consider this - the average cost MS charges system builders for XP is $50. For the most part they pass that price on to consumers who buy from the dells and gateways of the world. The average person replaces/upgrades their OS every 4 years. That's a little more than a dollar per month for the term of use. I really do think that windows provides you with $1 a month value.

Anyway...the most annoying problem i have run into on the 6315 has been with wifi. I keep it on cause we have wireless networks all over campus. if i leave for lunch or something i leave it on. I pick up access points while driving, or sitting for lunch, etc. If I am using the device i get a pop-over asking if I want to connect. there doesn't seem to be any way to turn these annoying things off. they popover every app i've had running.

Originally Posted by catspaw

Just to clerify about Microsoft, not saying they intentionaly build bugs into their software, even though there are to far to many bugs in every MS OS, but then again its a features vs acceptable%ofbugs vs stability vs timetomarket, etc., anyway leaving that aside, In reference to "intentionaly creating" all i was saying was that Hardware manufacturs, such as HP, and every other manufacter bring out improvements in increments to maximize & extend product life. Whats the point in building it perfect right off the bat? from an economic stand point, its just bad busines. You put out products that are good, and then improve on them with each iteration, even when you knew how to build it perfect right off the bat. Basically i was just commenting on the glaring errors in design, that could have been easily avoided, and asking why? The answer is HP though it was good enough, and it was, cause we all bought it, and we'll all use it, untill the next model comes out... They have the tec, and the know how to build it right, they just choose not to. I just think they should have improved on it a bit more then they did. Anyway, i think dennis had it write - make the phone and the PDA, completely separte, but contained within the same physical device. If my WIndows Mobile OS crashing a couple of times a day, fine, it sucks & i'm not impressed but i can live with it, but when it takes down my phone, and yet gives no outwards signs that anything is wrong, and i miss important calls because of it, THIS, i can't live with. As for the bluetooth "phone" abilities, it implementation is bad, real bad. If anyone finds a way around some of the problems please let me know.

jigari

Originally Posted by sporty2k

If I am using the device i get a pop-over asking if I want to connect. there doesn't seem to be any way to turn these annoying things off. they popover every app i've had running.

Yes, sporty2k. This pop-ups about "unable to connect" or "want to connect" are extremely annoying and there is no clear simple way to get rid off them unless, I assume, one goes through registry hacks

catspaw, you underlined a very important issue about Bluetooth and convergent device. Efficient and reliable Bluetooth handsfree connection is a must for a convergent device - no one want to walk with a brick, albeit a small one, stuck to her or his ear.

If BT sucks as you say, I will be returning my H6315 without a doubt (I cannot check its phone function for now, because it is locked to T-mobile service).

Rainman1976

One idea my friend does with his i-Mate is to run Windows Media Player. Don't play any music or video files, but turn the screen off. This way, the device can stay on, you don't too much waste battery life and still keep your bluetooth connection.

__________________
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Wife - AT&T 8525
Retired - AT&T 8525, Dell Axim X30 Mid, Audiovox XV6600, iPAQ 3765 & iPAQ 2215

imported_Bone

First I would like to start out by saying that I have had a 6315 for about a month now and love it! I have also been a T-Mobile customer for about 6 years (even through their other named periods, Voicestream, etc.) I will agree with some of these issues and concerns that some of you have, but I would also like to give credit where credit is do and that is to all of these companies including Microsoft who dedicate their time and expertise into developing these great OS systems and software’s for all of us so that we may have these great electronic devices. Now I know we all get fed up with certain things especially when it comes to electronics, but let me just say I am one of the biggest electronic guru freaks on here and yes I too get mad, but keep in mind these devices are by far from perfect because if they were we would have very few reasons to upgrade or to come up with better innovating ideas to make them better.

That said I would like to put my two cents in about some of these issues. First I think it is important to remember that we all went into this with our eyes open knowing full and well that these were the very first all-in-one devices to hit the market and that there would for sure be some issues that were missed and that there would be a few ba