Streaming the BBC's Content on your PDA

Kronalias · 01-19-07, 12:20 PM

The Beebotron site has been up since January 1, and as well as having had my 1000th hit today, I’ve had some really nice emails.

Beebotron lets you Listen Again to any BBC broadcast – something the Beeb won’t let you do on a PDA .

The main site gives you the information and background for the project, along with the radio stations and their programmes – just click and listen! This works well on a PC, but it’s getting a bit large for a PDA. So in the site you’ll find a link to Beebotron Lite, which is a cut down version (fully functional, but without the explanations) aimed purely at PDA users.

Beebotron and Beebotron Lite also host programme synopsis information. Now you’ll know what you’re going to play before you play it (unlike the Beeb’s site where you don’t know what, e.g. the Afternoon Play MON TUE WED THU FRI is going to give you unless you start playing one of the day links…)

I made the site primarily for my own use (Axim X51v, WM5 and A12 ROM btw) and then realised that other people might like it.

Now I need your help! I’ve started a compatibility list and I’d really like to know which PDAs work (and equally, if not more importantly, which ones don’t) – I’ll post results on the site with your first name unless you want to remain anonymous.

Thanks for taking the time to read this - hope you like the site!

Cheers, Kronalias

01-20-07, 10:26 AM

Thanks. I.m just now fulling exploring the streaming capabilities on my ax. This helped me find real player as well.

Jogga · 01-20-07, 10:34 AM

Presumably you have permission to stream copyright material from the BBC?

Kronalias · 01-20-07, 12:25 PM

Technically I’m not streaming – I’m providing the links that the BBC hide behind layers of webstuff (which is how I get them).

My site is really only up because the Beeb won't provide support for mobile devices. It infringes the BBC terms and conditions of usage. Read 'em - they're here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/help/copyright.shtml . No question, I'm in breach. Am I illegal? I don't know. Let's not get into a barrack room lawyer debate - if I am unlawful then the Beeb can contact me if they feel I'm *really* doing any harm..

However, I would draw your attention to this statement from the Beeb: " There is no service to stream or download BBC radio programmes onto mobile devices at the moment. However we are always researching new ways of making the BBC's content available " from their link here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/audiohelp.shtml#mobile.

Time ticks on without any apparent movement....

The Beeb does not support mobile devices, and it needs to. If I shut my site down then there is a high probability that *someone* is going to start another one.

I guess there are three possible futures:

(1) Beebotron may not attract many visitors and it won’t worry the BBC so they’ll turn a blind eye to me.

(2) Beebotron may not attract many visitors and the BBC will try to shut me down anyway.

(3) Beebotron may attract zillions of visitors, which will cause real problems for the BBC, and they’ll ask me to shut down.

My hope is that (1) will happen. That means I can continue to provide a service to the people who want to use their gadgets in a similar manner to me (in my case I want to stream BBC Listen Again from my wifi PDA – it happens to be a Dell Axim X51v by the way – to a decent speaker system).

If (2) happens I’ll consider the situation.

If ((3) happens then I will close my links immediately and voluntarily.

I'm not going to contact the Beeb - I'm not going looking for problems - but if they want to contact me they know where I am!

Cheers, Kronalias

Jogga · 01-20-07, 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by Kronalias

I'm not going to contact the Beeb - I'm not going looking for problems - but if they want to contact me they know where I am!

Cheers, Kronalias

I could (and probably should) answer your points one-by-one; however, after reading your post I suddenly lost the will to live.

You may have noticed (but obviously won't care) that the BBC is restricting output to non-UK citizens. This is because UK citizens pay for the BBC (through compulsory licencing: even if you don't watch or use the output you pay if you own a television in the UK.

Your site appears to be circumventing the copyright of the BBC by providing content to non-licence payers. I could be mistaken and hence my question. However, copyright infringement is a crime and it is wise to establish whether you are in breach before making someone else's material available.

01-20-07, 02:24 PM

It shows what i (don't) know.

xless · 01-21-07, 08:15 AM

Let me know who to pay the license fee to. BBC America blows -- I'd love to have access to the real thing, e.g. via a quality SD H.264 stream at my choice of 384kbps, 768kbps, or 1.5mbps, and maybe even HD @ ~5mbps. I could stream it to my Axim, my XBMC, etc.

Jogga · 01-21-07, 08:49 AM

Originally Posted by xless

Let me know who to pay the license fee to. BBC America blows -- I'd love to have access to the real thing, e.g. via a quality SD H.264 stream at my choice of 384kbps, 768kbps, or 1.5mbps, and maybe even HD @ ~5mbps. I could stream it to my Axim, my XBMC, etc.

The two options that spring to mind:

Move to the UK and purchase a television and licence
Find a decent cable or satellite operator where you live

The BBC sells its content throughout the world - a testament to its reputation rather than its quality :hide:

Kronalias · 01-21-07, 10:51 AM

Hi Jogga: I’m sorry you want to end it all – I’ll respond briefly because I wouldn’t want to detain you a moment longer than necessary

Seriously, thank you for your response. I did drone on a bit but I was trying to explain why I’ve launched the Beebotron site.

Re your post:

A google for ‘spoof ip tracking’ will reveal all manner of ways to defeat restricting content to particular locations.

I don’t know whether you can copyright a url – but I can guess the BBC’s response if I asked them for approval for my site. By not raising the question formally the Beeb can turn a blind eye to me, if you get my perverse logic.

If I’m *really* doing any harm then, as I’ve said elsewhere, I’ll shut down immediately and voluntarily. Of course, the whole issue would go away if Auntie provided a player for mobile devices…

Cheers, Kronalias

airborneaussie · 01-21-07, 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by Jogga

Presumably you have permission to stream copyright material from the BBC?

Are you certain that what Kronalias is doing is illegal??

All I see on his site are links back to the BBC. Now if he was 'hosting' said content then obviously that would be a different story. From what I can gather, 'anyone' could go to the BBC website, look at the source code of the pages and access everything that Kronalias has linked to without too much drama.....

Jogga · 01-21-07, 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by airborneaussie

Are you certain that what Kronalias is doing is illegal??

I have no idea; however, let me quote Kronalias himself (herself?)

Originally Posted by Kronalias

My site is really only up because the Beeb won't provide support for mobile devices. It infringes the BBC terms and conditions of usage. Read 'em - they're here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/help/copyright.shtml . No question, I'm in breach. Am I illegal? I don't know. Let's not get into a barrack room lawyer debate - if I am unlawful then the Beeb can contact me if they feel I'm *really* doing any harm..

There is a technical breach of the terms and conditions of using the BBC's website: Kronalias has acknowledged as much (the emphasis is mine)

I've had this type of conversation on Aximsite before (primarily with reese

): there are good reasons that all of us (including you and me) are protected by copyright laws. For an excellent reference on the subject see myPDA for the author of an e-book called "Getting Permission"

However, in brief:

If the BBC at some future date wishes to make this content available to mobile devices (and levy a charge for doing so) it is robbed of market share by the theft of its links
The fact that Kronalias is obviously very clever (and the webmaster at the BBC obviously not so clever) does not infer any right to make available the BBC's content without permission.
Kronalias' frustration at the BBC's reluctance to give him/her the content that he/she wants in the format that he/she wants is not a licence to hack into the website and remove copyright material

I am astonished at times at just how fast and loose some of us are with other people's property (intellectual, WiFi, etc): it seems that if it is not bolted to the floor, some of us think that it is fair game. Here's the heads up, it isn't, it's theft - whichever way you cut it.

The irony is that the BBC may have been grateful for an outside contractor/consultant to develop this niche market for them. Kronalias may have deprived himself/herself of an opportunity because of his/her reluctance to ask.

The Golden Rule is: If it ain't yours, leave it alone!

Jogga · 01-21-07, 12:12 PM

Originally Posted by Kronalias

A google for ‘spoof ip tracking’ will reveal all manner of ways to defeat restricting content to particular locations.

Excellent, as such applications are already available then copyright infringement is not an issue!

That's like suggesting that as there are locksmiths, it's ok to break into someone else's home.

**Martin** · 01-21-07, 12:49 PM

Do be careful with your free use of legal terminology, jogga.

Copyright infringement is not theft. In fact, it isn't actually a crime. It is a civil wrong. Only counterfeiting and piracy would be categorised as IP crimes under UK law.

I'm also not entirely sure that copyrighted material has been removed, as you argue. The links are to the BBC website and, by definition, they must be publicly available (albeit hard-to-find). The infringement seems to occur in the use of those links on another website for public use. I am in no way condoning such an act, but your allegations seem to me to be making mountains out of molehills.

Kronalias · 01-21-07, 12:56 PM

Hi again Jogga - good grief, this is worrying, I find myself practically agreeing with you over some of your points!

Please let me clear up any misunderstanding in your #11. The moment the Beeb makes content available to mobile devices my site comes down. No ifs, no buts, and I won’t wait to be asked to take it down.

I didn’t make my point well enough re ip tracking. It’s an unfortunate fact of Internet life that, although we might like users to follow ‘normal’ rules, they don’t. I’m not advocating breaking rules – although obviously occasionally I do!

You’re right about the frustration bit – the Beeb have provided a Radio Player on their site, which is nothing more than Real without the rewind button. Why won’t they do the same for mobile devices? Their usage is growing fast (iPhone, anyone?) and is set to continue.

Cheers, Kronalias

PS The *last* thing I want right now is another consultancy job! (I’m a ‘him’ btw)

Jogga · 01-21-07, 01:10 PM

Originally Posted by Martin

Do be careful with your free use of legal terminology, jogga.

Copyright infringement is not theft. In fact, it isn't actually a crime. It is a civil wrong. Only counterfeiting and piracy would be categorised as IP crimes under UK law.

I'm also not entirely sure that copyrighted material has been removed, as you argue. The links are to the BBC website and, by definition, they must be publicly available (albeit hard-to-find). The infringement seems to occur in the use of those links on another website for public use. I am in no way condoning such an act, but your allegations seem to me to be making mountains out of molehills.

Martin, this is my last word on the matter as I think that you are right - mountains out of molehills.

However:

Quote:

Link to source: Wikipedia

In many jurisdictions, such as the United States, copyright infringement is a strict liability tort or crime. This means that the plaintiff or prosecutor must only prove that the act of copying or actus reus was committed by the defendant, and need not prove guilty intent or mens rea. Good faith, standing alone, is no defense.

For electronic and audio-visual media, unauthorized reproduction and distribution is often referred to as piracy or theft

[..More via link..]

The fact of the matter is that the links belong to the BBC. Linking can be construed as reproduction (of the link itself) although I accept that such interpretation is a matter for the courts. If my assertion is correct, my terminology stands scrutiny.