Originally posted by Wayfinder Wow... That makes me wonder-- Do you still stoop over when you walk through a door? (grin) Do water leaks in the kitchen or bathroom send chills up your spine? Did your palms sweat when you saw Hunt for Red October?
I guess you've pretty much got the claustrophobia thing beat hands down, eh? I figure if a guy's on a sub 20 years... he's pretty much master over that one!
sometimes.
only really big leaks. then i break out the damage control kit.
yes - when the captain ordered 105% on the nuclear reactor.
and you are right about the claustrophobia.
however, i have developed a slight fear of heights since i retired. have not figured that out! :crooked:
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Harold Nelson, USN, ETC(SS), retired
"Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity." - Horace Mann :approve:
"Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away" - George Carlin
black holes, even though no one has ever actually SEEN one (and by definition, never will).
Ah-ah-ahhhhhh!.............never say never!
[/B]
Doesn't the nature of the Black hole make it impossible to "see"? So wouldn't not seeing it make it there? :) the lack of anything in that spot would indicate one's existance. Yes?
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John Wilker
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It is based on observable fact and history. If a person claims to be Christian and really has faith, it is based on accurate knowledge
Just curious, what Method do you use to ascertain the veracity of this "accurate knowledge"?
You're apparently a science-minded person. You want me to answer this in 25 words or less? :p
Here's the thing-- if you want to understand the verifiable facts behind the Bible... you have to study the Bible just like you study science.
One of the major flaws I find in many Bible critics is that they haven't actually studied the Bible enough to really know what they're talking about (not pointing the finger at you mind you... you haven't criticised anything).
If you'll check my original message, you'll find I'm just as critical of religious zealots as I am of science zealots. There is indeed fraud and deception on both sides. But there is also truth on both sides and for someone to deny that there is any verifiable truth in faith is the same as denying that there is any verifyable truth in science. It's there, if one bothers to objectively and earnestly study the issue.
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Originally posted by House I believe, that faith and science are not all that either think themselves to be.
I have trouble believing science 100% when science once thought the Earth was flat, or that the Earth was the center of the solar system. At least with religion you are expected to believe without physical proof, they dont try to give you facts to build faith on.
I personally belong to a reality based on belief. Faith, and belief build our world. Think about a chair, you believe that when you sit in a chair it will hold you, by my faith system, it is because you believe the chair will hold you that it does.
If you can get enough energy from people believing something can or can not happen then it will be so.
Science is much the same, as long as we all believe that the Earth is round it is.
Basically I'm saying that chairs dont break beacuse I am heavy, but because my faith in them isnt strong enough to keep them together.
Wasn't the church opposed to the whole "earth is round" theory?
When everyone believe that the world was flat, was it flat? If so, when did it become round?
If I have faith that if I jump out of a 20th story window I will live, will I?
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Originally posted by Howard2k If I have faith that if I jump out of a 20th story window I will live, will I?
only if
a) you can fly
b) newton was wrong
c) you land on a really big air mattress or
d) if you are doing some heavy duty recreational pharmaceuticals
and that is imho
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Harold Nelson, USN, ETC(SS), retired
"Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity." - Horace Mann :approve:
"Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away" - George Carlin
Wayfinder, there is no compelling reason to read or study the entire Bible. What justification is there for me to believe that the Bible was the divine word of god? It is one religion out of hundreds (thousands?) ... the only thing that makes it special is that the plurality of the world believes in it. Is that the basis for belief? As house pointed out, as long as enough people believe in it, then it's true, right? :p
I grew up as a Methodist - so I know a little about the Bible ... and there are enough compelling reasons not to believe the Bible that I feel further study and examination of the Bible would be a waste of time. What makes Christianity better than Hinduism, Judaism, Jainism? Maybe I should devote my time to studying all of those religions in depth?
The more I learn about the Bible, the more problems that I find with it ... but I don't believe someone needs to have an enormous amount of knowledge about the Bible to question its basic beliefs.
How could we all descend from one family (Noah's) in less than 5000 years? Why hasn't judgement day arrived like it was predicted in the Bible? Why would a god create us simply to see if we were good enough to live with him? Why doesn't prayer work? Why doesn't god do anything about priests molesting kids in his own "house"? Why are there so many planets/solar systems/galaxies if we are the only planet that is important? Where did the fossils of prehistoric man come from if humans were just created?
And those are just to start ...
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"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death"
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Xyress Wayfinder, there is no compelling reason to read or study the entire Bible. What justification is there for me to believe that the Bible was the divine word of god? It is one religion out of hundreds (thousands?) ... the only thing that makes it special is that the plurality of the world believes in it. Is that the basis for belief? As house pointed out, as long as enough people believe in it, then it's true, right? :p
This answer is rather lengthy... but you did ask a lot of questions. So here it is.
There are several reasons to believe in the Bible. For one, it was written by 40 different men from vastly different walks of life over a period of 1,600 years, yet is consistent within its own writings (and please, forgive me, but no claims that the Bible is inconsistent. Been there, studied that extensively, claims of inconsistency are poorly researched and bogus).
Another reason to belive it is because the Bible tells us all kinds of things that were millenia before their times and required divine knowledge. For an example or two: the Bible's laws on morality, hygiene and diet, although nobody knew why back then... had basis in very solid scientific reality. When a person obeys the laws of the Bible... he generally prospers. When he doesn't.. well then we have veneral disease, teenage pregnancies, broken homes, etc etc.
Another way we know the Bible is true is because of consistently fulfilled prophecy (and again... not to sound uppity... but I've researched this extensively, so please, I've heard all the arguments and claims to the contrary... and have found them to be without factual basis or merit).
As a scientific, analytical and logical person myself... the only way I came to accept the Bible was when it was proven to be true. But like I said... I took the time to actually study the book rather than just discount it.
I grew up as a Methodist - so I know a little about the Bible ... and there are enough compelling reasons not to believe the Bible that I feel further study and examination of the Bible would be a waste of time. The more I learn about the Bible, the more problems that I find with it ... but I don't believe someone needs to have an enormous amount of knowledge about the Bible to question its basic beliefs.
If I may... what you're likely finding problems with is not the Bible itself... but rather religion. I have studied the Methodist faith and have personally found great discrepancies between its teachings and the teachings of the Bible. The same goes for many other prominent religions. Religion has indeed given the Bible and God himself a bad reputation. That again... is the deceptions of men. I have found the Bible itself to be solid.
How could we all descend from one family (Noah's) in less than 5000 years?
I would have thought you knew how that worked... :p
Seriously, just simple mathematical extrapolation should easily answer that question for you. I mean, if you start out with four couples and each has three or more offspring and those have three or more (remember, folks back then didn't have much in the way of birth control) it's amazing our population today is ONLY 6 billion.
I'll answer your other questions one at a time...
Why hasn't judgement day arrived like it was predicted in the Bible?
Are you looking at the world around you? Have you examined the signs presented at Matthew chapter 24, the writings of Paul (2 Timothy 3:1-5), Peter and the Revelation of John? All of those signs have been coming true significantly over the past few decades. Everything is in place. All of these things point to the fact that "judgement day" is about to happen.
I mean, when the sky turns dark and you hear really loud roaring... do you believe there won't be a tornado just because you haven't yet seen the funnel? It is important to pay attention to the signs.
Why would a god create us simply to see if we were good enough to live with him?
Your argument is quite valid... because that is a human traditional teaching, not a Biblical one. The idea of all Christians dying and going to heaven is about as big a myth as the earth resting on the back of a turtle. (I know a lot of folks will disagree with me on that one, but again... I believe what I read in the Bible, not what some self-proclaimed man-o-God is spouting from a pulpit so he can get more collections in the plate). In my examination, I have found nowhere in the Bible that it states ALL righteous people are bound for heaven. That's simply not the case.
Why doesn't prayer work?
It does. It works amazingly well. If it doesn't, there can be several reasons why:
1) A person has not formed a relationship with God and is not living his/her life in accordance with His commands (the Bible clearly states that God does not listen to the prayers of the wicked).
2) A person is praying disrespectfully, in the wrong way, or for the wrong thing.
3) The person is not praying in meekness-- ie, rather than praying to conform himself to God's will... he expects God to conform to his human will. It doesn't work like that. God is smarter and wiser.
So if any of these things are the case... it will continue to seem like the prayer is failing-- until that person starts earnestly trying to bring his life into harmony with God's requirements. Those requirements are clearly stated in the Bible. It requires meekness, being teachable and recognizing that despite our natural arrogance, we humans really have very limited understanding and wisdom. Once we're willing to admit that... then God starts listening.
The primary mistake that most people make is expecting God to do things according to their expectations, rather than bringing themselves to do things according to His.
Why doesn't god do anything about priests molesting kids in his own "house"?
You know, I have a really good answer for this one, but I'm afraid if I lay it on the line I am going to offend a lot of people, because I can't answer this without stepping on some toes somewhere. So if I may, suffice to say that God has a really good reason for allowing it to go on this far.
However... please do consider... these people have now been exposed, haven't they? The whole church is in turmoil. Don't eliminate the possibility that this exposing of wickedness is God's doing. A scripture in the Bible states that "There will be nothing hidden that will not be revealed." That in itself is part of the prophecy of the time of the end.
Consider what's gone on in just the last few years. Sports heroes have been exposed as greedy, immoral cheats. Politicians have been exposed as greedy, lying immoral cheats. The churches are being exposed as ungodly and opposed to the teachings of the Bible. Big Business has been exposed as greedy, lying unethical monsters who cheat people out of their life earnings. Every wicked establishment of man is being exposed for what it is.
Which is exactly what the Bible has stated would happen just before judgement. When God finally does bring judgement upon mankind... there will be no question that these wicked institutions have it coming.
Why are there so many planets/solar systems/galaxies if we are the only planet that is important?
Future expansion? God's love of variety? Artwork of the Almighty? There's lots of logical explanations for that one. I myself kind of like the future expansion concept.
Where did the fossils of prehistoric man come from if humans were just created?
I've studied enough science and know enough about the fossil record to know that there are great big gaping holes and inconsistensies in that record. I have also seen enough outright fraud in the scientific community regarding the fossil record (and other areas) to understand that the evolution THEORY is just that... a man-made fairy tale that should have been thrown out of the scientific community long ago. Sorry to step on toes there, but them's the facts. One of the things that really, really ticks me is that schools are forced to teach evolution-- to our children-- as if it were fact.
Of course, if someone wants to believe he descended from apes, let him go ahead. I'm here as the result of an intelligent designer. :)
So, this is a rather lengthy reply (but then, you did ask a lot of questions). The one thing I'm trying to get across is that there ARE legitimate answers to these questions... if one is willing to look deeper into the matter, go to the Bible itself, and stop accepting the claims of men-- whether they be scientists or self-made religious leaders. I am of the firm belief that one cannot accurately learn the Bible by going to church for an hour on Sunday morning.
-- I do hope that nothing I have presented here has caused offense to anyone. Sometimes telling it like it is is a touchy position. Telling the truth has never been popular (they murdered Jesus himself for doing so). If I've offended anyone, then I would humbly suggest figuring out WHY you're offended... and don't shoot the messenger. :p
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Originally posted by Wayfinder
Why doesn't god do anything about priests molesting kids in his own "house"?
You know, I have a really good answer for this one, but I'm afraid if I lay it on the line I am going to offend a lot of people, because I can't answer this without stepping on some toes somewhere.
okay - i am curious as to your explanation here. i am a christian who happens to be in a nazarene church running computer/lights/sound equipment. there is nothing in your post i disagree with. a pm to me would be great. i think i know what you will say . . . glad you took the time to answer those questions. thanks in advance! :approve:
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Harold Nelson, USN, ETC(SS), retired
"Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity." - Horace Mann :approve:
"Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away" - George Carlin
I appreciate the detailed response, Wayfinder - you make some good points. I'd like to reply to most of your points, but I need to get off to work! Maybe I can find some time during the day ;)
I know your reply deserves a more thoughtful response, but let me just toss one thought back at the group to keep discussion going ...
There are two answers to my questions that seem to contradict each other. If evolution does not happen, then how could so many different races (Asian, Africans, Caucasians, Hispanics, Indains, Native Americans etc.) have evolved from Noah's family? I think it was Noah and 3 couples? How do you get such different people in different areas of the world? I don't recall a passage in the Bible that says God then created all of the different races on the different continents.
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"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death"
Can you give some example of predictions that have come true? To me, the bible is no more accurate than Nostradamus. Take the passage about the earth being a circle. (IS 40:22). It actually says "It is he that sitteth upon the circle".
It's pretty convinient that whether the earth was a globe or was flat, this "prediction" can fit. A circle is actually flat. So if the earth was flat, the Bible wins (through that argument that it's a flat circle). If the earth is a globe, the bible wins. Through the argument that by circle it was actually meant globe.
This is just the same as nostradmus. His prophecies are so vague that they only come true past tense when events can be made to fit into the jigsaw puzzle that was his work.
Aren't there also references to the four corners of the earth?? Oh look, the earth is a flat square, God wins again.
I've looked into the whole prediction thing a little myself (though I don't pretend to have researched is as much as you have) but some of them are just silly.
Using the bible to jusitfy the accuracy of the bible is itself a totally flawed concept.
There is a prediction that he would be pierced in his hands and feet. Hasn't it since been proven that this would NOT have been the case?? And the whole crucifiction image that lives in most churches is incorrect?
That he would be raised from the dead. What proof of this is tlhere other than the very same document that is being substantiated? Again, using the bible to prove the bible is correct.
You could actually count the number of paragraphs in the bible and use THAT as a number of correct predictions. It's based on the same merit. Or you could just simply state that "I believe the bible to be true and there is no way that any scientific notion can convince me otherwise. It's true because it's written".
What is the bible's cure for leprosy? Or are we just believing the ones that we want to believe?
How should your relationship change if your brother dies before he and his wife have had kids? And would you actually do this?
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