Originally posted by Xyress So you were raised Christian, questioned some religious teachings, and then studied the Bible and finally accepted it as fact again. Sounds like you were always a Christian to me.
Thank you. That's quite a compliment. I would like to think that's true... although certain times of my life would indicate otherwise.
Why did you discount Judaism? What was it about the resurrection story that made it so convincing to you? What flaws did you find with Hinduism? Buddhism? Islam?
I didn't discount these religions. But I didn't pursue them to the extent that I did Christianity because I saw big, gaping, giant holes in their logic right from the start. For example, all through recorded history the Jews taught the arrival of the Messiah. Then when he shows up, they have him killed. Then when God's wrath is visited upon Jerusalem in 70 AD and all the records of genetics and the priesthood are completely wiped out (effectively destorying the prophetic basis of the Jewish religion)... instead of admitting they were wrong and accepting the Christ... they just stubbornly stuck to their misconceptions, as they have done all through history. That did not convince me the religion was reliable as a source of truth. Buddhism-- there is no one truth, but rather a glorious multitude of truths which coexist in an infinite diversity of cosmic something or other. Chee... that's not a belief, that's chaos. I might as well believe the stork delivers babies. Islam... too intolerant and violent and constantly bickering with somebody or other. Hinduism-- I didn't see the point of worshipping rocks.
These are all texts written by man ... but you chose one of them and decided it was the only one that was written by God. Where did all of the other religions come up with their beliefs and morals? Could they just have made them up?
Simple answer to this one, one I've pointed out before. Satan is the great deceiver. He is trying to derail God's purpose. One of the major ways he does so is by getting people to believe falsehoods. Religious belief is a very strong influence. Satan doesn't care whether someone claims to be Christian or Hindu or Bhudist... so long as what they believe is wrong.
He wouldn't get very far if he started Chruches of Satan (although indeed, some people even fall for that one). So he creates myriads of additional faiths and thousands of Christian denominations, all designed to achieve one single goal: turn people away from the right path. Confuse them. Alienate them from God.
In the case of evolution, Satan has succeeded grandly. We don't have to believe in God because there is no God. Therefore, we can do whatever we want to do, because we are our own God. That's a pretty popular concept with a lot of people. Which is why I think evolutionists so strongly resist even the possibility of a superior designer of life, because they want too much to rule themselves to even admit that they might need to follow someone else.
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Originally posted by Xyress I don't have any reason? How about that an all-powerful deity is much more complex than energy? Maybe energy is god in the sense that it created life - if you would like to use that definition, that's fine with me.
But the stories of God creating the Earth in 6 days and creating light and then the sun and then the stars (as if stars are different from the sun) is not logical. An intelligent source that created life is not an outlandish idea in itself, but the Bible's depiction of such an intelligent creator is outlandish at best.
Why do you consider that these were six literal 24 hour days... especially since apparently from the description of the Bible... at the beginning of the creative days, a 24 hour day didn't exist yet?
Are you under the impression that the word "day" has only one meaning?
See, again I have to believe that you're laboring under the misconceptions and claims of questionable religions rather than factual teachings of the Bible itself. And honestly, I completely sympathize with this. I can fully understand how a person would examine the claims of predominant religions and say, "What a bunch of rubbish!" Because frankly, it is. They're not teaching what the Bible teaches.. they're teaching 2000 years of man-made philosophy and tradition. No wonder you object to this. As rational human beings, we should!
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Originally posted by Wayfinder Why do you consider that these were six literal 24 hour days... especially since apparently from the description of the Bible... at the beginning of the creative days, a 24 hour day didn't exist yet?
Are you under the impression that the word "day" has only one meaning?
See, again I have to believe that you're laboring under the misconceptions and claims of questionable religions rather than factual teachings of the Bible itself. And honestly, I completely sympathize with this. I can fully understand how a person would examine the claims of predominant religions and say, "What a bunch of rubbish!" Because frankly, it is. They're not teaching what the Bible teaches.. they're teaching 2000 years of man-made philosophy and tradition. No wonder you object to this. As rational human beings, we should!
I'm not trying to argue that 6 days is literal. You can interpret the Bible however you wish. What I'm objecting to is the personification of God. Someone who smites people he doesn't agree with, causes global floods to teach sinners a lesson, destroys cities because they are living "ungodly", picks sides in battles, etc.
I agree that it's possible there could be some force before life started on Earth that initiated life on Earth - I don't know where it came from or how it started, but some guy up in the clouds that doesn't know whether the Earth is round or not or that the sun is actually a star doesn't really make a whole lot of sense.
You say that you discounted Judaism because of the gaping holes and the stubborness of the believers even after things prophesized in the Old Testament to your mind came true. What about the stubborness of Christians who keep predicting the end of the world (as foretold in Revelations), but it never comes? Clearly, the end of the world was supposed to occur while there was still at least one Apostle left to see it. What went wrong? Here is a good list of all the apocalyptic predictions throughout history: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/9941/
I'm assuming that I'm interpreting this wrong as well - what does your translation have to say about Revelations and the Gospels which state he will return within their generation?
Now, you've mentioned here earlier that you see the signs of the end of the world. You're in good company ;) When do you think it will end?
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Xyress What I'm objecting to is the personification of God. Someone who smites people he doesn't agree with, causes global floods to teach sinners a lesson, destroys cities because they are living "ungodly", picks sides in battles, etc.
Uh, not to pick on grammar here... but I thought God by definition IS personified... :p
But as for the rest,
a) He didn't cause the global flood to teach sinners a lesson. He did it because Satan's angels (demons) had stepped over the line and materialized on earth and had influenced men to such a degree that the entire race of mankind, save for one family, had turned so willfully wicked that they had to be removed. So it was partly to remove wickedness... and partly to eliminate the wicked demons. And yes, I know there might have been other ways to do it, but this was the way that God, in his all-seeing wisdom, chose to be best.
b) He doesn't smite people he doesn't agree with. He smites people who refuse to agree with Him. Don't we do the same thing? We have all kinds of laws and put people in prison and even execute them when they don't agree with us. Since God's way is perfectly righteous and just, when someone doesn't agree with Him to the point that they endanger other people or an aspect of God's purpose, then they are frankly, criminals in his eyes and bring upon themselves His judgement. That's not an unusual concept, nor unique.
c) God doesn't just destroy cities because they're "ungodly" (although again, that is reason enough. After all, the term "ungodly" according to the Bible is synonimous with "wicked"). He destroyed them because they were evil. I remember reading a documentary from an archaeologist who had been unearthing one of the finds in Caanan. He came across evidence of the religious practices of that city and after a couple of years of piecing things together, made the statement that the practices of these people would turn your stomach, and commented that "It's amazing God tolerated them as long as he did." I won't go into the details of what he found, but if I had been God, I'd have wiped 'em out too... and long before He did.
d) God only picks side in battles when His people or His Name is involved. If someone breaks into your house, you'd pick up a baseball bat, right? As far as wars today... those are the wars of men, to which the Bible states God is greatly opposed.
but some guy up in the clouds that doesn't know whether the Earth is round or not or that the sun is actually a star doesn't really make a whole lot of sense.
An interesting concept. What guy are you talking about?
You say that you discounted Judaism because of the gaping holes and the stubborness of the believers even after things prophesized in the Old Testament to your mind came true. What about the stubborness of Christians who keep predicting the end of the world (as foretold in Revelations), but it never comes?
Do you realize how relatively little time has passed since those prophecies? God foretold that He would give the nations a certain amount of time to rule themselves unhindered. Only some 2,500 years have passed since then. What should he have given them, 100 years? 500? 1000? That would leave great room for Satan to squawk that God didn't allow nearly enough time for the experiment. Was God to bring Armageddon prior to man achieving his greatest potential of technology? When in history would you have chosen for him to lower the boom? During the Dark Ages? The Renaissance? The Industrial Revolution? Last week?
God does not see time as we see it. The Bible states, "God is not slow respecting His promise, but he is patient because He desires all to attain to repentance." The longer He holds back Armageddon, the more time people have to compare the rule of man with the principles of the Bible and turn back to God. Christians can be a stubborn lot... but primarily, we endure until God decides that enough is enough.
Which, by the way, it's almost time. Why do you think He's given me permission to spend my time here telling you about all this stuff? :p
Clearly, the end of the world was supposed to occur while there was still at least one Apostle left to see it. What went wrong?
I'm not acquainted with that prophecy. Could you provide further info?
I'm assuming that I'm interpreting this wrong as well - what does your translation have to say about Revelations and the Gospels which state he will return within their generation?
Again, I'm not sure exactly which prophecies you're referring to. If you'll enlighten, I'll try to assist.
Now, you've mentioned here earlier that you see the signs of the end of the world. You're in good company ;) When do you think it will end?
In this generation. Yours and mine. The signs are fulfilled. It's very close. A couple months? A year? The Bible isn't as specific with Armageddon as with was with the arrival of the Messiah, but it did give us the signs to watch for-- and they're here.
It is a common misconception among even supposed Christians that "no man knows the day or the hour" as meaning we wouldn't have a clue as to the time period. True, even today we don't know the exact day or hour. But Jesus did say something interesting. He stated, "For I am coming like a thief in the night"... meaning it would be unexpected, sudden. And that's as far as many people get. But if one should keep on reading, we find an additional comment to his disciples, "But you... don't you be caught sleeping." In other words, Jesus' followers would be in expectation and would not be caught off guard; they would know the time, by the signs. Which is why he gave us the signs. If he didn't intend us to know when it was going to happen, he wouldn't have given signs.
Signs are for the purpose of informing those who know how to read them. But to those who don't know how to read them... they make no sense.
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Hey HNelson, I finally figured out why these folks have such difficulty in understanding the concept of creation. Although you and I have an Intelligent Designer... from what I understand, their ancestors were monkeys.
:D
:jd: :bang: :waaa:
BAAD BAAD WAYFINDER!
<-- Wayfinder
I apologize profusely. It was just too hard to resist.
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Originally posted by Wayfinder
Uh, not to pick on grammar here... but I thought God by definition IS personified... :p
Yes, and that's what I'm objecting to - making him into a human-like being that has whims and emotions. I did not use the word incorrectly:
Quote:
One entry found for personification.
Main Entry: per·son·i·fi·ca·tion
Pronunciation: p&r-"sä-n&-f&-'kA-sh&n
Function: noun
Date: circa 1755
1 : attribution of personal qualities; especially : representation of a thing or abstraction as a person or by the human form
2 : a divinity or imaginary being representing a thing or abstraction
3 : EMBODIMENT, INCARNATION
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Originally posted by Wayfinder
But as for the rest,
a) He didn't cause the global flood to teach sinners a lesson. He did it because Satan's angels (demons) had stepped over the line and materialized on earth and had influenced men to such a degree that the entire race of mankind, save for one family, had turned so willfully wicked that they had to be removed. So it was partly to remove wickedness... and partly to eliminate the wicked demons. And yes, I know there might have been other ways to do it, but this was the way that God, in his all-seeing wisdom, chose to be best.
So, turning willfully wicked is different from sinning? I think you're nit-picking.
b) He doesn't smite people he doesn't agree with. He smites people who refuse to agree with Him. Don't we do the same thing? We have all kinds of laws and put people in prison and even execute them when they don't agree with us. Since God's way is perfectly righteous and just, when someone doesn't agree with Him to the point that they endanger other people or an aspect of God's purpose, then they are frankly, criminals in his eyes and bring upon themselves His judgement. That's not an unusual concept, nor unique.
Um ... nitpicking again. He doesn't agree with them, they don't agree with him ... they disagree - same thing.
c) God doesn't just destroy cities because they're "ungodly" (although again, that is reason enough. After all, the term "ungodly" according to the Bible is synonimous with "wicked"). He destroyed them because they were evil. I remember reading a documentary from an archaeologist who had been unearthing one of the finds in Caanan. He came across evidence of the religious practices of that city and after a couple of years of piecing things together, made the statement that the practices of these people would turn your stomach, and commented that "It's amazing God tolerated them as long as he did." I won't go into the details of what he found, but if I had been God, I'd have wiped 'em out too... and long before He did.
It seems that the only real problem with my statements were semantics. Here's a quote (maybe you have a different translation):
“...Turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterwards would live ungodly.” 2 Peter 2:6.
d) God only picks side in battles when His people or His Name is involved. If someone breaks into your house, you'd pick up a baseball bat, right? As far as wars today... those are the wars of men, to which the Bible states God is greatly opposed.
I thought God wanted us to rule on our own and see how we do ... or does he make exceptions for his chosen people?
An interesting concept. What guy are you talking about?
I think it's pretty clear that God was thought to live in the clouds or the "heavens" ... or "firmament" as Genesis calls it. That is, until we realized what clouds are actually made out of and there actually is no heaven up there in the sky.
Do you realize how relatively little time has passed since those prophecies? God foretold that He would give the nations a certain amount of time to rule themselves unhindered. Only some 2,500 years have passed since then. What should he have given them, 100 years? 500? 1000? That would leave great room for Satan to squawk that God didn't allow nearly enough time for the experiment. Was God to bring Armageddon prior to man achieving his greatest potential of technology? When in history would you have chosen for him to lower the boom? During the Dark Ages? The Renaissance? The Industrial Revolution? Last week?
I think it said within the generation of the Gospels ... that's not 2000 years. It is quoted in the first 3 Gospels ... do you want exact passages?
Mt.23:36 "Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation."
Mk.13:30 "Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done."
Lk.21:32 "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled."
God does not see time as we see it. The Bible states, "God is not slow respecting His promise, but he is patient because He desires all to attain to repentance." The longer He holds back Armageddon, the more time people have to compare the rule of man with the principles of the Bible and turn back to God. Christians can be a stubborn lot... but primarily, we endure until God decides that enough is enough.
Which, by the way, it's almost time. Why do you think He's given me permission to spend my time here telling you about all this stuff? :p
So you have direct authority on the end of the world? What about David Koresh - he was pretty certain as well I'm sure.
Clearly, the end of the world was supposed to occur while there was still at least one Apostle left to see it. What went wrong?
I'm not acquainted with that prophecy. Could you provide further info?
Ah, I had heard that before, but I could only find this passage saying that those that crucified him would see it:
Rev. 1:7 - Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.
In this generation. Yours and mine. The signs are fulfilled. It's very close. A couple months? A year? The Bible isn't as specific with Armageddon as with was with the arrival of the Messiah, but it did give us the signs to watch for-- and they're here.
These are indeed exciting times then! Amazingly, all of the people that have predicted the world throughout history have been wrong, but I'm actually talking with someone that knows the world will end within my generation on a Pocket PC message board! Oh wait, is that a trick answer and "generation" doesn't actually *mean* generation?
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"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death"
Originally posted by Wayfinder Hey Howard, I finally figured out why these folks have such difficulty in understanding the concept of creation. Although you and I have an Intelligent Designer... from what I understand, their ancestors were monkeys.
:D
:jd: :bang: :waaa:
BAAD BAAD WAYFINDER!
<-- Wayfinder
I apologize profusely. It was just too hard to resist.
I don't buy the creator concept either but each to their own :)
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Originally posted by Xyress Yes, and that's what I'm objecting to - making him into a human-like being that has whims and emotions. I did not use the word incorrectly:
OH. Three points on that:
1) The Bible states we were made in God's image... not physically, but in our ability to feel emotion, judge, love, etc.
2) The Bible statest that God DOES have emotions. It says "God is love." It also states that when we do wrong, it hurts him. The entire Bible presents Him, not as an impartial, separated entity, but someone who desires to be personally involved in our daily lives and who truly cares about us. No, He doesn't have whims. But He does have emotions. They're not fruitcake like ours, but they're there.
3) The Bible says that Jesus was the perfect representation of God, the ideal image of Him. Jesus displayed emotion, including joy, anger, love and even weeping.
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So, turning willfully wicked is different from sinning? I think you're nit-picking.
No, the Bible teaches that very thing. Let me ask you... which would you find more offensive, a friend who accidentally does you some wrong, or a person who INTENTIONALLY, willfully does you some wrong? Would you expect God to feel any differently?
Um ... nitpicking again. He doesn't agree with them, they don't agree with him ... they disagree - same thing.
Is it? God doesn't have to agree with them; He's the Big Guy. He's the lawmaker, not them. They have to agree with Him. The King isn't expected to follow the whims of his subjects; they're expected to follow his laws.
When someone disagrees with God, they are always in the wrong, no matter how strongly they feel about their position. As is the case with all cultures, if God just allowed every inDUHvidual decide what is right and wrong in his own eyes and live his life accordingly... life would be complete chaos. Pretty much as it is now.
<c) God doesn't just destroy cities because they're "ungodly" (although again, that is reason enough. He destroyed them because they were evil.>
It seems that the only real problem with my statements were semantics. Here's a quote (maybe you have a different translation):
“...Turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterwards would live ungodly.” 2 Peter 2:6.
And this is a prime example. These people weren't just "sinners" or have a disagreement with God. When He examined these cities for just ten righteous men (as He promised Abraham He would do), all that he found was Lot and his family. Not even ten. Then when He sent his angels in the form of men to Lot to warn him to leave, the men of that city tried to gang-rape them! That's more than just wanting to live their own lives; that's absolutely wicked and deserving of destruction.
I thought God wanted us to rule on our own and see how we do ... or does he make exceptions for his chosen people?
Throughout history he has ruled over his chosen people. Once we dedicate ourselves to do God's will, then we are bound to keep that promise. He in turn, is bound by the integrity of His word to carry out his promise to guide our lives. In the case of ancient Israel, He promised to protect them from their enemies, which is what He did. His Name and oath is very important to him.
I think it's pretty clear that God was thought to live in the clouds or the "heavens" ... or "firmament" as Genesis calls it. That is, until we realized what clouds are actually made out of and there actually is no heaven up there in the sky.
I think I see a pattern of attempting to force God into humanistic molds and perceptions. You speak of a day as if it's a literal 24 hours. You speak of "heaven" as if it has to be within our airspace or solar system. These are not Biblical teachings.
I think it said within the generation of the Gospels ... that's not 2000 years. It is quoted in the first 3 Gospels ... do you want exact passages?
Mt.23:36 "Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation."
Mk.13:30 "Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done."
Lk.21:32 "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled."
OH, I see what's confusing you. You're unaware of the double application and fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy. In many prophecies of the Bible, there is both a typical and anti-typical fulfillment. One now, one in the future. In the case of Jesus' prophecy of destruction, he was giving a double-warning, one to the Christians and Jews of his day, the other to us today. This is a well-established concept that is accepted by most Bible students. But indeed, it was within the generation of the apostles that Jerusalem was destroyed by Rome and its Temple torn down to the very foundation. Jesus also indicated, referring to our time, that the generation in which all these signs took place would not come to an end before Armageddon came. And it hasn't. But it's getting pretty old... which is one of the reasons I've told you that you can expect it soon.
So you have direct authority on the end of the world? What about David Koresh - he was pretty certain as well I'm sure.
The Pharisees of Jesus's day challenged his authority in just the same manner. "By whose authority do you do these things?" they mocked. They were the same ones who after directly witnessing Jesus perform a miracle, went out and tried to figure out how to murder him because he did so on the sabbath. Not exactly open-minded individuals.
I'm just revealing to you what the Bible says. If you want to challenge my authority to explain these things to you, to be real honest that's not my problem. I'm not required to prove these things to your satisfaction, only to God's. I'm just required to inform you and provide such evidence and understandng as is reasonable. If you can't/don't/won't discern the difference between me and David Koresh... that's sad. One nutcase is a poor example of true followers of God.
As for your other comments... please scoff on your own time. ;)
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Originally posted by Howard2k I don't buy the creator concept either but each to their own :)
Uh... whatcha talkin' about? I got the name right. (snicker snicker)
See what happens when ya stay up until the wee hours posting messages here... you start to confuse user names. Not that I did. No, no. The name's right. hee hee. (love them edit buttons)
Hey, glad to see you're still with us though! :D
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