Archived - A thread about nothing....

[Wayfinder]

Originally posted by cageyjames
Very true, we do need to make sure we set a good example. But part of what makes this forum great is that everyone can speak their minds. This thread is a great example.

I'll agree there 100%.

In fact, one of the things I've appreciated about everyone here, regardless of stance, is that when it's gotten a little heated, everyone on both sides has said, "Oops. OK, no prob." and it's forgotten. Know how rare that is on a forum?

[jeepfaned]

if i may jump in here..(i havent read thru all the pages in the last few days or so) but are there people on this thread who accually believe humans evolved from apes monkeys and chimps??

[Jwilker]

Originally posted by jeepfaned
if i may jump in here..(i havent read thru all the pages in the last few days or so) but are there people on this thread who accually believe humans evolved from apes monkeys and chimps??

There sure are. Are there people on this thread who actually thing a supernatural being existed, created everything there is then left to come back another day? :)

[ikehiker]

Originally posted by Wayfinder
With all due respect, if you don't like the thread-- you don't have to read it.

I have quit reading it, certainly all the endless posts you've been making. I found early on that they were half truths - much like your using DNA evidence to explain how they all came from a single pair 4000 years ago when, in spite of your 'answer,' variations between sequences in different human races show they required much longer time periods to develop. We know how quickly genetic code changes occur within and between species and 4000 years is just ludicrous.

I think that's a description that has more applied to the evolutionist argument here, isn't it? We've met and answered just about every one of the evolutionist claims. It is the evolutionist argument that has continued to ignore presented fact in this thread.

As I said, I've quit reading most, but have caught bits and pieces. I've seen jwilker and others respond to many points you've made with answers that contradict the 'facts' as you present them.

I'm sorry, but in my opinion that's emotionalistic nonsense. You are here proffering that modern medicine exists because of the concept of evolution and that we endanger the study of medicine if we don't believe in evolution. Obviously that is not the case.

And if you are saying modern medicine is not based on modern biology or that modern biology is not based on the concept of evolution, then you’re even more oblivious to modern science than I thought.

My point in the final line of my post was an attempt to make it clear that I was not posting that with any authority as a moderator. I can be banned from this site just as easily as the rest of you but there’s a limit to how much drivel I can see (even when I’m trying to avoid it) without responding.

Edit: I see I was way too slow in writing this response :) There was already a whole page between what I wrote before and this reply. I saw WF's quote of CJ's message (Sorry, I consider what Ike wrote a flame.) before I saw CJ's edited version. I actually thought he'd deleted my post for a minute.

[jeepfaned]

seems more logical then a big bang explosion and having life created from worms fish and apes.

[Jwilker]

Originally posted by jeepfaned
seems more logical then a big bang explosion and having life created from worms fish and apes.

To you I suppose it does. TO me the idea of a creator who stops being involved and essentially vanishes is silly and unprovable. To each his own though

[Wayfinder]

Originally posted by Jwilker
He's right Ike it was. In order for the bible to be correct you have to remove the real definition of a day (as defined by earths rotation) and guess at the length of God's day. It's all in how you interpret it, you're interpretting it wrong :D

Actually, yes. I never have been able to figure out how people believe the creative days to be literal 24 hour days... when at the time the days occurred... there WERE NO literal 24 hour days.

When the Bible states that "1000 years is as but a day"... to me that should leave pretty obvious room for consideration that God wasn't here discussing a literal 24 hour day. While I do admit that some creationists literalize the Genesis account... I never have understood the willingness on both sides to actually believe it. There is absolutely nothing in Genesis itself that would lend to that understanding of the scripture.

Since there is such a demand for factual data here:

RANDOM HOUSE WEBSTER'S COLLEGIATE DICTIONARY

DAY. 1. an interval of light between two successive nights. 2. the light of day. daylight. 3. a division of time equal to 24 hours. 4. an analogous division of time for a planet other than the earth. 5. the portion of the day allotted to work. 6. a day having a particular purpose or observance. 7. a time considered as pripitious or opportune. 8. a partiular era. 9. a period of activity 10. period of existence or influence.

There were 3 additional usage definitions which were grammatical rather than actual definitions. You'll note that in the above 10 definitions, only one (#3) referred to an actual 24 hour period. Definition #1, could refer to an Alaskan day of 6 months (as could #2). The definitions as applies to the Bible is most applicable as definitions #5, 7, 8 and 9.

Therefore, I fail to understand this continued and unfactual insistance to ascribe a literal 24 hour day to the Genesis account. I think it's something Bible critics hold on to out of intentional malice... because I see them continue to use this argument even after it's been proven wrong.


Which ones are those? THe ones who blow up abortion clinics? shoot abortion docters, attack other countries to "save" them? Oh wait those weren't evolutionist actions were they? :)

Was it creationists who invented the atomic bomb? Do evolutionists murder and commit crimes? Evolutionists aren't innocent in such things.

I will admit that religion has a vast history of abuses. There are real dangers in religious fanaticism. That doesn't mean that all creationists are fanatics-- any more than an evolutionist committing a crime means that all evolutionists are criminals.

Guys, do you see how hollow these arguments you present prove to be? They just do not stand up to close, rational examination.

With God in our lives why would we need to advance scientifically. Once we're all saved and living the blessed life who cares to invent new technologies, ways of doing things?

Because that's part of the gift God gives man-- to better himself, to explore, to himself create things. Just because I believe in God and creation doesn't mean I'm gonna lay down and expect God to do everything for me. I mean, duh. :p

It may not go down like that at all, but the most recent model of a religious regime ruling I'm not comfortable taking the chance.

Now here's an interesting point (and I'm not sure what good it's going to do to present this here): but the Bible foretold that in the last days, there would be a plethora of false religions that would claim to follow God and Christ, but would actually be "workers of lawlessness". It states this would be the case with the vast majority, for "narrow is the road leading to life, and few are the ones finding it, but broad and spacious is the pathway leading to destruction, and many are the ones taking it."

In fact, a very major Biblical prophecy deals with God's final dealings with false religious organizations-- and is the prophecy I'm looking for, which will signal the beginning of judgement day (which, for the record, is not a literal 24 hours either).

So CJ... are you correct in your opinion regarding religion in general? Yes. In fact, I agree. I've even stated so repeatedly here on this thread.

That doesn't mean, however, that the Bible itself is wrong, nor that there is no God. It just means that man has abused religion-- just as he's abused science.

[Wayfinder]

Originally posted by jeepfaned
seems more logical then a big bang explosion and having life created from worms fish and apes.

Good for you jeep. Sometimes the simplest statements get the point across. :)

[ikehiker]

Originally posted by Wayfinder
Good for you jeep. Sometimes the simplest statements get the point across. :)

One man's logic is another's baseless assumption, I would say.

Just slightly off the topic (since the biblical flood was touched on previoisly), but is anyone else in the mid atlantic area? The rains started here (Maryland) about 3 hours ago and are expected to continue for the next couple of days.

[Jwilker]

Was it creationists who invented the atomic bomb? Do evolutionists murder and commit crimes? Evolutionists aren't innocent in such things.

I will admit that religion has a vast history of abuses. There are real dangers in religious fanaticism. That doesn't mean that all creationists are fanatics-- any more than an evolutionist committing a crime means that all evolutionists are criminals.

Guys, do you see how hollow these arguments you present prove to be? They just do not stand up to close, rational examination.

I didn't say crimes are only committed by creationists (or religious people in general)

You said, "Or should I start making claims regarding evolutionary fanatics?" And I was merely pointing out that religious fanatics are capable of evil also. I consider it to be a worse type as well because of the rightousness of the committer.

I wasn't presenting an argument I was merely pointing out a hole in yours. You can't level a claim of evolutionist fanatics and not accept the religious fanatics. And ive we cancel out the atom bomb with the crusades, that still leaves some pretty scary crimes committed in gods name.

I could ask you the same thing about hollow arguments but you ignore the question or dismiss it completely, so I won't

Let's take a hypothetical. In a world or country ran by creationists, or let's just say christians. Do you think Muslims, jews, budhists, hindus, atheists, agnostics, etc would be welcome? Would they be able to hold government office? WOuld there be a government or would it just be a high preist?

That doesn't mean, however, that the Bible itself is wrong, nor that there is no God. It just means that man has abused religion-- just as he's abused science.

It certainly doesn't make the bible right and certainly doesn't prove god exists. I do agree that both have been abused.

[ikehiker]

Originally posted by Wayfinder
While I do admit that some creationists literalize the Genesis account... I never have understood the willingness on both sides to actually believe it. There is absolutely nothing in Genesis itself that would lend to that understanding of the scripture.

OK, here's where I get totally confused. You’re willing to accept that the 7 days are not 'days,' why are you so adamant against the idea that G-d used evolution as the means by which He created mankind? So what if the final day when He created man in his likeness took 3 million +/- years? As I pointed out an eon ago in this thread, from my discussions with scientists that are Christians or Jews, this is how they reconcile the facts of evolution with their belief in a higher power.

[jeepfaned]

you dont understand...God stopped because we did not obey his word. we..as humans..screwed up everything and started the doubt and ?'s many many many years ago. God has allowed the doubts and distrust,he allowed the misunderstanding and the so called "loopholes" in the Bible that some people try to use to disprove that God is the creator. WE messed it all up..humans..cuz we are not perfect,God gave us a choice..we made the wrong choice so therefore we suffer for that.
its kind of like a mother baking a big batch of cookies and telling the child.."you can have 1 now..or if you wait and do as i say..then you can have alot more later". the kid eats 1 cookie now and sneaks a few more later,then wonders why he gets punished for not doing as he was told. kinda like that..
God created us in a perfect way..we thought we could make it better and do as we wanted..we were wrong so God has punished us.
there was an email sent to me about a talk show asking someone whats wrong with the world today,why did God let 9-11 happen..she replied somethin to this effect..
>>Anne Graham gave an extremely profound and insightful response. She said
"I believe God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are, but for years
we've been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out of our government
and to get out of our lives. And being the gentleman He is, I believe He has calmly backed out. How
can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand He leave us alone?"
In light of recent events...terrorists attack, school shootings, etc. I think it started when Madeleine Murray O'Hare (she was murdered, her body found recently) complained she didn't want prayer in our schools, and we said OK.
Then someone said you better not read the Bible in school .... the Bible says thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbor as yourself. And we said OK.
Then Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our children when they misbehave because their little personalities would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem (Dr. Spock's son committed suicide). We said an expert should know what he's talking about. And we said OK. Now we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they
dont know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers, their classmates, and themselves.
Probably, if we think about it long and hard enough, we can figure it out.
I think it has a great deal to do with "WE REAP WHAT WE SOW."
Funny how simple it is for people to trash God and then wonder why the worlds going to hell. Funny how we believe what the newspapers say, but question what the Bible says.

-----------------i think this pretty much says it all.

[hnelson59]

2 Peter 3:2-4
I want you to recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets and the command given by our Lord and Savior through your apostles.
First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." (from the NIV translation)

2 Timothy 3:1-7
But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God-- having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.
They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over weak-willed women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, always learning but never able to acknowledge the truth.

the above passages were written well before we were born and yet could be read in today's headlines.

[hnelson59]

and for further reading (i guess i could have linked it, but wanted to make it easier - please forgive)

OVERVIEW OF PROPHECY
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PROPHECY PRIMER
by Ron Graff
Prophecy is fore-telling what is going to happen. A large percentage of the Bible (between 1/4th and 1/3rd of it) is devoted to prophecy. Some of the prophecy has already been fulfilled. The rest of it is still waiting for fulfillment. Biblical prophecies are different from other prophecies in that all of them do come to pass, and they are fulfilled exactly as foretold. In fact, the Bible's own standard is that if a person is known to have given a false prophecy, he should be put to death (Deuteronomy 13:5).

Fulfilled prophecy is one of the most powerful proofs that the Bible truly is the Word of God. Since all of the prophecies that should have been fulfilled in the first coming of Christ were fulfilled to the finest detail, we can be sure that the Bible itself is God's revelation to man since no human writer could be 100% accurate. 2 Peter 1:21 says "For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit." (NIV)

There were over 300 Old Testament prophecies about Messiah that were fulfilled by the life of Jesus Christ. Josh McDowell separates these into 61 different categories, and, following the argument of an older writer, Peter Stoner (Science Speaks), he says that if you just took 8 of these prophecies, the odds of a person coincidentally fulfilling all eight of these would be one in 10 to the 17th power. Since we can't easily picture what that means, he gave this illustration: Suppose you took the state of Texas and spread silver dollars two feet deep across the whole state, then marked just one of them and buried it somewhere in the state. Then, if you chose one person, blindfolded him, and told him to pick just one silver dollar, his chances of getting the marked one on his first try would be one in 10 to the 17th power! (Josh McDowell, Evidence That Demands a Verdict, Vol. 1, pp. 144, 167)

Prophecies which have not yet been fulfilled yet are of great interest to Christians, and especially so today, because we see many of them beginning to come to pass in our own generation! Jesus said that the generation that sees these things start to be fulfilled will also see their completion because once the events of these "last days" begins, matters will escalate quickly. "Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened."(Matthew 24:32-34) (NIV)

The thing that makes the study of prophecy challenging is that there are so many different trends to watch. In this site, we list more than 50 "Study Topics!" A few of these point to prophecies already fulfilled, but most of them are about things which are yet to be fulfilled (or are actually being fulfilled right now!). Some of these have other significant subdivisions also. "Signs of the Times" groups together six other topics which we will consider below.

So how do all these "pieces" fit together? We will give the broad outline of Biblical Prophecy now, and once you see "The Big Picture," it will make more sense to investigate various parts of the subject in detail.

We should also point out that not all Bible scholars agree on how future prophecy will be fulfilled. Do not let this disturb you, because as interesting and important as the subject is, people can have very different views about prophecy and still agree on the most important aspects of Christianity, especially on the Life and Work of Jesus Christ and on the salvation He provides for all who believe. There are some who think that future prophecies will not be fulfilled literally, but that they merely have spiritual meaning. Most of these consider themselves "Amillennial" (meaning "no Millennial Kingdom" in the future.) Others, who do expect a literal fulfillment of all these things in the future, sometimes disagree on issues such as the timing of the Rapture, or the "catching away" of the Church. Those who believe the Rapture will take place soon, before the events of the Tribulation (which we will explain below), are known as "Pre-Trib," while those who think the Rapture will take place in the middle or at the end of the Tribulation are known as "Mid-Trib," or "Post-Trib." Some even think the Rapture will take place toward the very end of The Tribulation. They consider themselves "Pre-Wrath." There are other variations too, but it would be too confusing to follow this any further. The point is, that these people may all be equally committed to Christ even though they see future things differently. We should love one another anyway, and, if those who disagree with us are truly "born again," we should still consider them our brothers and sisters in Christ.

Our position is "Pre-Trib." We agree with Bible teachers like Chuck Missler, Chuck Smith, Hal Lindsey, Paul and Peter Lalonde, J.R. Church, Jack Van Impe and a host of other popular and scholarly teachers who believe that we are living in "The Last Days," and can expect to see Christ return in our generation. We don't believe in setting dates for His return, but believe it will be soon.

Jesus' own teaching about the future is found in His sermon on The Mount of Olives. He indicated that there would be four phases of the future. The rest of this article will follow His outline from The Gospel of Matthew, chapter 24.

[hnelson59]

1A.. BEGINNING OF BIRTH PAINS - Matthew 24:4-8

This is a picture of the times in which we are living. This is the generation which has seen the rebirth of the nation of Israel, exactly as prophesied in Ezekiel, chapters 36 and 37. Such a thing has never happened in history, that a people who have been scattered for 2500 years could be brought back together and given their land again. Many miraculous events have enabled Israel to become a nation again in 1948 and to survive the hostility of all her enemies.

Earthquakes, Famines, Plagues, Wars and Rumors of Wars, Apostasy, Lawlessness, Persecution, Terrors in the Heavens. And False Christs are listed here and in the parallel passages (the other accounts of this same message in Mark 13 and Luke 21). These are often called the "Signs of The Times" because they are things which will start to happen before Christ comes and then become even worse during the Tribulation.

The events of this period of time are like the onset of labor pains. They are strong enough to let the mother know that the time of birth is near, but they are not as severe as they will be later. Thus, the dreadful events of the Tribulation are prefigured by many smaller versions of the same things before the intense trouble of the Tribulation actually begins.

2A. THE TRIBULATION - Matthew 24:9-14

According to Daniel 9:24-27, there were seventy weeks of Israel's history to be fulfilled. The word "week" literally means "seven," so 70 "weeks" could be 490 years. But there is a break. After the 69th week (7 + 62 "sevens"), it was prophesied that Messiah would be cut off. Then there would be one last "week" of seven years at a later time.

Sir Robert Anderson, the illustrious head of Scotland Yard, wrote The Coming Prince in 1895 to show that the first 69 "weeks" (69 times 7 = 483 years) were fulfilled exactly, to the very day, on the date that Jesus offered Himself as King - the day of "The Triumphal Entry" into Jerusalem. (Grant R. Jeffrey, Armageddon: Appointment With Destiny, pp. 27-30.)

The events that last week of Israel's history have never transpired yet, but they must be fulfilled before the end of this age. The entire Church Age occurs between this 69th and 70th "weeks". The Church was a "mystery" (something hidden) in the Old Testament (Ephesians 3:9-10). It is a temporary "grafting in" of Gentiles until that future time when God's chosen people, Israel, will believe again (Romans, chapter 11).

The Church Age will end at the very beginning of this period of time. The Church Age is given in Revelation, chapters 1 through 3, but at the beginning of chapter 4, John is told to "come up here" into the heavenly realm where he viewed the events of The Tribulation. This corresponds to the Rapture spoken of in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-6.

This "week" is the same as the seven years of the Tribulation. During this time Antichrist will come into power, first over a Revived Roman Empire (Daniel 2), and then over most of the planet. This will be made possible because of an growing interest by Earth's citizens in a One-world government, or "New World Order." It will also be facilitated by an apostate one-world religion, led by New Age thinking which actually goes all the way back to the ancient corruption of Babylon. Daniel 9:27 indicates that Antichrist will make a covenant with Israel for seven years, and in the middle of it he will break the covenant and set up the "Abomination of Desolation" (Matthew 24:15), which will begin the next period, "The Great Tribulation."

The characteristics of this period of time include a great war between Russia and Israel (World War III), Persecution, Apostasy, False Christs, and Lawlessness.

The expression "Times of the Gentiles" is used in Luke 21:24 to refer to the period of time that Jerusalem will be under Gentile domination. It has been under Gentile control from that time until now. Even today, it is, in a sense, under Gentile domination, because its holiest spot, the Temple is held by Moslems. And even during the seven years of Antichrist's treaty, the city will be subject to the power of the Gentile world system. Antichrist will allow them to build their city and Temple, and then he will defile it.

This first half of the seven years of Tribulation is represented by the first six Seals in The Revelation, chapter 6.

One bright spot during this time is the fact that the Gospel will be preached "in the whole world," and "to all nations." This could be accomplished by the work of the 144000 sealed ones, by satellite technology from underground Christians, or, most probably, by the angels of Revelation 14:6-9 which preach the Gospel and warn people not to receive the Mark of the Beast.

3A. THE GREAT TRIBULATION - Matthew 24:15-28

This intensified period of trouble is called The Great Tribulation by prophecy scholars, following Christ's own description of the time as one of "great distress.".

The "abomination that causes desolation" is a clear reference to Daniel 9:27 where, in the middle of the "week" or seven-year peace treaty, Antichrist defiles the Temple by setting up an image of himself (Revelation 13:15) and demanding the worship of all. He will utilize Modern Technology to control an economic dictatorship so that only those who worship him and receive the Mark of the Beast will be allowed to buy or sell.

Antichrist will then will have forty-two months to reign. (Revelation 13:5, 14 - See also Revelation 11:3 and 12:6 where this period of time is specified as 1,260 days, which equals 3 1/2 years using the lunar calendar of 30 days per month --the normal Biblical month.

During these last three and one half years, the believing residents of Israel will flee from this tyrant into the mountains. This may be a reference to the place of God's protection for 42 months (Revelation 12:6), which many people believe will be the rose red city of Petra, the ancient capitol of the Edomites just east of the Dead Sea (in modern Jordan).

Verse 21 tells of a "great distress", worse than any other that has ever been or ever will be. The prophet Jeremiah described this time in the same way. He used the metaphor of "birth pains" in his prediction of a terrible future time of "Jacob's trouble" just before the time of ultimate blessing. (Jeremiah 30:5-8) The onset of labor pains before the Tribulation becomes hard labor during that time of "trouble," but something wonderful is about to be "born" when Jesus Christ returns as "King of Kings."

These last three years of Tribulation are covered by the Seven Trumpets and the Seven Vials of God's wrath in The Revelation, chapters 7 through 18.

4A. AFTER THE TRIBULATION - Matthew 24:29-31

This time corresponds to The Revelation, chapters 19 through 22. It is about "The End" and a New Beginning. According to Revelation 19:11-16, Jesus Christ will return to Earth as victorious King of Kings and Lord of Lords. He will destroy the forces of evil at the Battle of Armageddon. This is not the Rapture because the white-robed saints are already with Him as He descends. It is, rather, the gathering of the believers who have survived the Tribulation, and who will then populate the Millennial Kingdom.

According to Revelation 20, this Millennial Kingdom, or thousand years of Christ's righteous reign on Earth, will take place, and then be followed by one last rebellion by Satan, who will be bound in the Abyss during the thousand years, but released at the end. Satan will gather human rebels to fight this last war, but will be utterly defeated by Christ and cast into the Lake of Fire.

After the Great White Throne Judgment, God will then create a "New Heaven and Earth" where we will dwell eternally with Christ. There will be no pain, sorrow, or suffering there! (Revelation chapters 21 and 22).

the link just in case you want it http://www.bible-prophecy.com/overview.htm

just interesting reading that certainly seems to fit. now, where was i in my game of chess . . .