Archived - A thread about nothing....

Yo keep posting like that and I won't read you posts... ;)

[jeepfaned]

good point a page or so ago about us assuming that the 7 days were in the time frame we use now days..we have no idea how long "a day" was back then.
God can create a rock in the middle of the ocean today and let someone find it tomorrow and research it next week and come to assume it is billions of years old...people "humans" who dont believe in God dont understand the power of God and how he works..cuz they only look at the issue from a humans standpoint..which is less then God.

i guess the best way to sum up this thread is that the ones who believe in God see how rediculous it is for some one to believe in the big bang and that we evolved from worms and apes.
where as the ones who believe we evolved from apes and the big bang think its crazy to believe there is a God who has always been and has the power to create anything at will and created man in his likeness.
there will never be a common ground here,til the day we die...then the ones who are wrong will know.

[ikehiker]

Originally posted by jeepfaned
til the day we die...then the ones who are wrong will know.

Hmm, even that statement is not completely true - look at the possibilities:
1) you are right, therefore we non-believers discover the truth.
2) you are wrong and there is no afterlife, therefore when we die, no one knows the truth (since we are no longer aware).
3) we are both wrong, there is no Christian G-d but there is reincarnation.
a) If we remain aware, then we both know,
b) if we lose awareness, we still don't know

[hnelson59]

Originally posted by ikehiker
As I pointed out an eon ago in this thread, from my discussions with scientists that are Christians or Jews, this is how they reconcile the facts of evolution with their belief in a higher power.

there are many christians who are not scientist who believe the same way. me personally - ya know it doesn't really matter. 6000 or 6,000,000 years the end result is the same. scripture tells me that man will never understand the mind of God. and ya know, i believe that. in fact, i am sure that man will never understand the universe around him - never. we will discover stuff, think it is nifty, make cool toys from the discoveries (like the axim) and feel good about the fact that we understand something we once did not. and then we will make more discoveries that will cause more questions which will lead to more discoveries . . . whew, my brain hurts thinking about it! ;)

somewhere in one of these threads i mentioned that i was a nuclear power plant technician/operator/instructor. i said it to make the point i ain't stupid and certainly am not naive. i do figure that one day i will know the answer to alot of things i do not currently know the answers to. and if like some believe, when i die if i just do the "ashes to ashes, dust to dust" thing and there ain't nothing after this - oh, well. didn't hurt to live by the standards i have chosen and if nothing else leads to some pretty interesting discussions. :approve:

ps - chris if ya read this i really need some more smiley dohickies to choose from. it's hard to keep up with star! thanks!

[Wayfinder]

Originally posted by ikehiker
OK, here's where I get totally confused. You’re willing to accept that the 7 days are not 'days,' why are you so adamant against the idea that G-d used evolution as the means by which He created mankind? So what if the final day when He created man in his likeness took 3 million +/- years? As I pointed out an eon ago in this thread, from my discussions with scientists that are Christians or Jews, this is how they reconcile the facts of evolution with their belief in a higher power.

I discount the idea that God used evolution to create mankind because of two basic reasons, the first being the more dominant:

1) The Bible teaches otherwise and since by extensive personal study I have come to recognize the Bible as the word of God, I take it as truth.

2) There are too many great big, gaping, gigantic, illogical, irrational holes in evolutionary theory for me to scientifically accept it. When I said I have examined evolution from a scientific standpoint, I meant it. To me, it just doesn't make sense. When one believes in intelligent design... those problems vanish. So I apply Occam's Razor and creation wins.

[Jwilker]

Originally posted by jeepfaned
Funny how simple it is for people to trash God and then wonder why the worlds going to hell. Funny how we believe what the newspapers say, but question what the Bible says.

-----------------i think this pretty much says it all.

Well without being insulting to god (I wouldn't want to do that) I think my mom is a better parent. Based on your analogy, god is more like the mother who baked cookies, said don't eat one and when the kid ate one, left town for vegas and never returned. Without repeating the "show thyself" argument again since it won't be answered to my satisfaction anyway, I'll just leave it alone.

I think the only ones wondering why earth sucks so bad are the religious. The rest seem to be trying to make it better.

More generalizations. Who believes what the paper says? every news paper is full of lies? Not a single paper prints a single truthful story? I don't, even read the paper. I'm sure there are a great many that do, but some of those also believe the bible. Are they wrong on both counts?

[Wayfinder]

Originally posted by jeepfaned
you dont understand...God stopped because we did not obey his word.
"I believe God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are, but for years we've been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out of our government and to get out of our lives. And being the gentleman He is, I believe He has calmly backed out. How can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand He leave us alone?"

Very well put. I have often found it interesting that (many) evolutionists will state there is no God, refuse to acknowledge God, insult God and then are the first to cry, "Where was your God when all this happened?"

Answer: ignoring you, because you told Him to.


Then Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our children when they misbehave because their little personalities would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem (Dr. Spock's son committed suicide). We said an expert should know what he's talking about. And we said OK. Now we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they
dont know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers, their classmates, and themselves. I think it has a great deal to do with "WE REAP WHAT WE SOW."

Bingo. If we ignore God, we pay the consequences.

Funny how simple it is for people to trash God and then wonder why the worlds going to hell. Funny how we believe what the newspapers say, but question what the Bible says.

-----------------i think this pretty much says it all. [/B]

I have to agree. It's amazing how people rebel against God and do what they want to do (and have been for thousands of years), then insult God because they think He's not paying attention or doesn't care.

It's they who aren't paying attention. It is they who don't care.

[Jwilker]

Answer: ignoring you, because you told Him to.

So he's not the god of love but the god of I told you so, ha ha suffer. I could reveal myself to you and instantly have a faithful but I'd rather you suffer mwa ha ha ha?

I get it right?

[Jwilker]

There are too many great big, gaping, gigantic, illogical, irrational holes in evolutionary theory for me to scientifically accept it. When I said I have examined evolution from a scientific standpoint, I meant it. To me, it just doesn't make sense. When one believes in intelligent design... those problems vanish. So I apply Occam's Razor and creation wins.

I don't expect an answer but I will ask none the less. (without leveling insult, or flaming) Wayfinder I would like to know the scientific processes you employed to come to your logical and scientifically sound decision? Surely a man of science performed experiments of some sort. Made endless observations? Calculations? interviews with other scientists and religious people alike to weigh both sides of the coin?

How did you come to your conclusions? Reading the bible cover to cover isn't really research or scientific. So if that was to be your answer....

I'm not trying to flame ya. I areally am curious. You go to great lengths to point out the scientific nature of your decision, the logic of it. That you've scientifically proven the bible to be 100% right.

I'll even grant you the prophecy stuff. There's enough room for interpretation that those very well could be fulfilled. What else?

[Jwilker]

oh yeah HN, very good reading. Informative.

[Wayfinder]

Originally posted by hnelson59
there are many christians who are not scientist who believe the same way. me personally - ya know it doesn't really matter. 6000 or 6,000,000 years the end result is the same.

Yeah, and that's the thing. This is something Bible critics like to focus on... but they're examining a piece of bark so close they fail to see the forest... but also fail to see the rest of the bark.

Here's a couple of points:

1) The Bible does not place an age on the earth itself... just on creation after the earth was created. The statement "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" indicates no time period involved. It could be billions of years.

2) The creative days-- as has been pointed out-- could be a considerable period of time.

3) Carbon 14 dating is not scientifically established as infallible. There have been great debates among scientists themselves as to its reliability.

So bottom line-- getting stuck on dates and times fails to see the creation account as a whole and is a groundless argument to begin with.

ps - chris if ya read this i really need some more smiley dohickies to choose from. it's hard to keep up with star! thanks!

HEAR HEAR! MORE SMILEY THINIGIES!

[jeepfaned]

wilker you have no clue..sorry..but you contridict yourself by saying above.....Well without being insulting to god (I wouldn't want to do that) I think my mom is a better parent.....
#1 why would you have a problem insulting what you think dont exist? afraid of what might happen to you?
#2 are you saying your mom is better then God? i think not..no one on Earth was..is..or will ever be..no disrespect to moms.
------I think the only ones wondering why earth sucks so bad are the religious. The rest seem to be trying to make it better.--------

now that is flat out stupid and wrong and very dumb for anyone to say...how dare you think that "non-religious" people are the only people on Earth trying to make it a better place. a very stupid thought in my opinion!!

[Xyress]

Originally posted by hnelson59
somewhere in one of these threads i mentioned that i was a nuclear power plant technician/operator/instructor. i said it to make the point i ain't stupid and certainly am not naive

Isn't Homer Simpson a nuclear power plant technician?

[Jwilker]

Originally posted by jeepfaned
wilker you have no clue..sorry..but you contridict yourself by saying above.....Well without being insulting to god (I wouldn't want to do that) I think my mom is a better parent.....
#1 why would you have a problem insulting what you think dont exist? afraid of what might happen to you?
#2 are you saying your mom is better then God? i think not..no one on Earth was..is..or will ever be..no disrespect to moms.
------I think the only ones wondering why earth sucks so bad are the religious. The rest seem to be trying to make it better.--------

now that is flat out stupid and wrong and very dumb for anyone to say...how dare you think that "non-religious" people are the only people on Earth trying to make it a better place. a very stupid thought in my opinion!!

1) Actually I'm not at all concerned with insulting something I don't believe exists. Here that tooth fairy! You little loser! :) I was trying not to anger Wayfinder.

2) Well no matter how much I screwed up my mom never abandonned me. She never abandonned my sister for the things I did wrong before she was born.

You read between the wrong lines. I never said non-religious people aren't trying to make the world better. I said (based on comments from each religous poster in the last 5x pages) that the reglious members are the only ones concerned with how screwed up things are.

It also seems to me (again based on observation) that the religious seem to work on harrassing non believers to make the world better while others are out doing things.

"Only I can save you. My god is the true god, come with me or go to hell." I've heard that said to my face on my porch and driveway.

[Wayfinder]

Originally posted by Jwilker
So he's not the god of love but the god of I told you so, ha ha suffer. I could reveal myself to you and instantly have a faithful but I'd rather you suffer mwa ha ha ha?

I get it right?

No, you get it very wrong. To tell the truth, since I've answered this before I was tempted to ignore it, but since you're attacking the intentions of God, I find myself compelled to answer for the sake of those new to this thread.

It has nothing to do with him being vindictive. It has nothing to do with enjoying seeing us suffer. It does have to do with extreme arrogance, haughtiness, conceit and a total lack of humility on the part of mankind as a whole.

It's not at all like a child who grabs some cookies. It's more like an idiot teenager who tells a loving father to go to and stuff it.

We raise a child. We do the best we can. We teach laws, morals, principles. He becomes a teenager. He falls in with the wrong crowd. He's haughty. He thinks he knows everything. He thinks he's bulletproof. He cusses us out daily and tells us where to go and endangers the other members of the household. He tells us he doesn't have to follow our rules (despite the fact that we're paying the bills and own the house) and causes problems every day. He tells us, his parents who have raised him, he doesn't need us, doesn't love us, doesn't want us. Finally he decides to rebel and leave (or he is kicked out of the house for being too divisive).

What, we're supposed to bail him out of the inevitable trouble he's getting himself into? That's going to help him learn what it means to be responsible for his own actions? That's going to teach him humility and cool his rebelliousness.

No. He reaps what he sows. As long as he continues to exhibit that attitude, he has no right to expect his parents to have anything to do with him. They didn't disown him-- he disowned them. And if he calls and says, "Dad, I got drunk and they threw me in jail. Come and bail me out,"... the dad will likely let this little rebellious twit STAY in jail.

Now, if years later, the boy starts to wise up, if he starts to clean up his life and he calls his father and says, "Dad, I was wrong. I'm sorry for the way I acted. Can we set things right between us?" then... if he's truly repentant, he may be accepted back into the family. But it won't be the father who's expected to conform to the boy's twisted views. It will be the boy who will be required to conform to the right views of the father.

Mankind in general has told God, the Father to take a hike. God, like Jeep pointed out, said, "OK, you're on your own. Give me a call if your attitude changes." But man's attitude hasn't changed. And to expect God to appear before your disbelieving attitude and say, "Hey, I'm here, what hoop do you want me to jump through" when he's already given plenty of evidence and plenty of people to point out that evidence, is unrealistic.

It's not surprising that you don't understand the viewpoints of God. You don't believe the Bible and you're the rebellious teenager. You don't understand the views of the Father. Maybe someday you will, but right now, you think you're right. Those of us who have already been there, done that, learned differently know better, but we can't tell you anything, because, well, you know how teenagers are.

Now, that's not a personal insult. It's just an illustration, applied to our current situation. It may help explain things. I hope so.