Archived - A thread about nothing....

[Howard2k]

Originally posted by Wayfinder
Are you totally unacquainted with the scientific fact of variety within species?

My mistake. So Lions, Cheetahs and my little tabby are all just variations? Nothing to do with evolution then?

[hnelson59]

Originally posted by Howard2k
My mistake. So Lions, Cheetahs and my little tabby are all just variations? Nothing to do with evolution then?

they do use the "e" word here, but maybe it will better aide you in understanding your cat ;)

http://www.cat-domain.com/cats_felis/felis.htm

[Xyress]

Originally posted by hnelson59
the bible has stated for over 2000 years (documented fact) that many will scoff at it. many have tried to quiet it. to outlaw it. promised death to those caught with it. and yet it prevails. some claim it is only for the weak minded. if that is so, there are a great many weak minds in the world today (mine included).

I just wanted to comment on this before the rest of it - Christianity prevailed because its followers killed anyone who resisted it. It started out as a small cult, but was eventually adopted by the ruling power of the day and then Christianity spread by killing all those who didn't believe in it ... not because it was the "best" religion.

Some have indeed tried to outlaw it and have killed people for believing it, but know this - Christianity is the cause of more death and suffering than any religion known to history. Yes, even more than Hiroshima and Nagasaki (which Wayfinder claims to be the deaths caused by "evolutionists").

I fully respect your right to believe in whatever you want. But I will adamantly oppose any religion that tries to force its moralities and doctrines on other people.

The current state of terrorism in our country is in large part due to our religious affiliation. Would the terrorists have attacked us if we were not perceived as a Christian nation? Maybe ... but it would've been harder to convince the militant Muslims that what they were doing was God's plan.

In short, I will defend your right to believe what you like, but please do not try to force your beliefs or moralities on others.

[Howard2k]

Actually thats the little guys only. I'm more curious about the myriad of different cat species evolving from one pair of cats. No biggie though.

And I still don't understand my cat. :)

[Xyress]

Originally posted by hnelson59
the writings concerning jesus tell of one who was 100% man and 100% God (ya know - the trinity thing, which could be another point for debate i suppose) the reader of the bible needs to understand that God chose to become man. to live with us. to have his diaper changed. his knee bruised. to be called names by other kids. it was a choice he made. jesus was the fulfillment of old testament prophecy concerning the promised jewish messiah. he went about teaching things that apparently amazed many - including religious leaders of the day. he spoke with a gentle authority. he was not afraid to call a spade a spade. in the end it cost him his life. before he died, he asked his father in heaven to spare him the agony of the cross - but jesus knew the plan. but he was a man, too. as he hung on a cross (or pole, or "T"), his father, who could not bare the sight of the wrongs (sin) which jesus had to bare for the plan of salvation to work, turned his back on his son. jesus died with the weight of the world on his shoulders.

So, which is it? Is Jesus the son of God or God incarnate?

Originally posted by hnelson59

some say it ended here. the corner stone of christianity says it did not. jesus, we are told, descended into hell itself to defeat that which all men fear - death.

for the believer death is no longer something to fear or even be concerned about. it is a passage. the bible does teach this.

I thought we had agreed back in one of the earlier pages that hell was in fact just death, nothingness. Is this only after Jesus defeated death (as we are told)?

Originally posted by hnelson59

so what rules would you have me play by? the rules of man or the rules of God? if i played by your rules how much easier would it be for you to say "see, he plays by our rules. how can he believe in God?" i choose to stay true to the course i have chosen.

would you really have it any other way?

The point I was trying to make (and you and jeepfaned have helped me make it) was that in order to justify your beliefs, you must use circular logic. You can always fall back on "God did it".

If you debated the veracity of the Bible based on science and the history of religion, I would not claim that you were not a true believer ... just that you argue fairly. The trouble is that the only way you can justify the complete inerrancy of the Bible is to stretch interpretations and by disregarding all scientific evidence that disagrees with your book ... and when that fails just resort to "God is all powerful and mysterious - we cannot attempt to understand his actions".

There comes a point when you have to ask yourself, "Why do I believe this book that is supposed to be the word of God when it contains the flaws of man?"

[hnelson59]

Originally posted by Xyress
Some have indeed tried to outlaw it and have killed people for believing it, but know this - Christianity is the cause of more death and suffering than any religion known to history. Yes, even more than Hiroshima and Nagasaki (which Wayfinder claims to be the deaths caused by "evolutionists").

i guess i would need some statistics to show the validity of this comment. however, in our modern, post christians killing people for religious beliefs world, i would certainly suggest you talk with those under . . . various factions of muslim rule for ways of enforcing their beliefs.

I fully respect your right to believe in whatever you want. But I will adamantly oppose any religion that tries to force its moralities and doctrines on other people.

as i have said before, my moral compass will be my guide in all aspects of my life - spiritual, physical, emotional and political as will yours.

The current state of terrorism in our country is in large part due to our religious affiliation. Would the terrorists have attacked us if we were not perceived as a Christian nation? Maybe ... but it would've been harder to convince the militant Muslims that what they were doing was God's plan.

you're right , the world trade center was a cover for a very large christian movement

In short, I will defend your right to believe what you like, but please do not try to force your beliefs or moralities on others.

i have not tried to, nor will i, force anyone to believe the way i do. however many would like to try to force me - and others - to throw our beliefs away in the name of fleeting political whims. not gonna happen. sorry - sort of.

have we gone full circle yet? my time machine is in a no parking zone that was set up by some andorian interstellar traffic fanatic! :D

[Howard2k]

If Bush was Muslim, would The US have invaded Iraq?

[hnelson59]

Originally posted by Howard2k
If Bush was Muslim, would The US have invaded Iraq?

if saddam hussein was a jedi, would luke be his cousin?

[Howard2k]

Lol, maybe....

[Xyress]

Originally posted by hnelson59
as i have said before, my moral compass will be my guide in all aspects of my life - spiritual, physical, emotional and political as will yours.

While this is true, my moral code is pretty simple and does not infringe on other people's rights. Yours, however, discriminates against entire groups of people.

Do unto others - that's my basic philosophy. The law should take over only when you begin to infringe on others' rights. That's a pretty simple rule that works in every situation I can think of.

Originally posted by hnelson59 i have not tried to, nor will i, force anyone to believe the way i do. however many would like to try to force me - and others - to throw our beliefs away in the name of fleeting political whims. not gonna happen. sorry - sort of.

No? What about legislation against homosexuals? I guess you don't care if they believe the way you do as long as they adhere to your rules?

[hnelson59]

Originally posted by Xyress
So, which is it? Is Jesus the son of God or God incarnate?

both

I thought we had agreed back in one of the earlier pages that hell was in fact just death, nothingness. Is this only after Jesus defeated death (as we are told)?

who is "we"? i did not sign up for that interpretation.


The point I was trying to make (and you and jeepfaned have helped me make it) was that in order to justify your beliefs, you must use circular logic. You can always fall back on "God did it".

let me make a point here - since when do beliefs have to be justified? this is an extremely simple example, but which do you believe is better - vanilla or chocolate ice cream?

If you debated the veracity of the Bible based on science and the history of religion, I would not claim that you were not a true believer ... just that you argue fairly. The trouble is that the only way you can justify the complete inerrancy of the Bible is to stretch interpretations and by disregarding all scientific evidence that disagrees with your book ... and when that fails just resort to "God is all powerful and mysterious - we cannot attempt to understand his actions".

here again depending on which side of the argument you fall on, we can both find statistical, scientific and even physical evidence to support our stands. what does it prove? that we both know where to go on the internet to get info.

There comes a point when you have to ask yourself, "Why do I believe this book that is supposed to be the word of God when it contains the flaws of man?"

i guess this is the true bone of contention. i have not had anyone prove to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is flawed. however i have found its teachings to be sound. its standards of living to be beyond reproach. its words soothing. i have found it to be exactly what it says of itself - the truth.

sorry. can't sway me. i need a doughnut and some gamma rays. here little neutrino - where are you?

[Howard2k]

- to throw our beliefs away in the name of fleeting political whims.


Another good reason for seperation of state and church.

[Warrior]

Originally posted by MyUncle
I believe I will be immediately in the presence of my creator and will hear "Well done my good and faithful servant". I do not claim to be perfect...just forgiven. I do not contend that I deserve this more than anyone else. I do not believe that I get to decide who goes, for it is not my party...I have just responded to the invitation.

I believe many answers here will be one day fullfilled. I believe that Hell is merely complete seperation from God. With out God there is nothing. So for many of us here I believe they are correct and that there will be a whole lot of nothing for them to find.

And.... I sincerely do hope to see all of you in God's presence! I am certain I will be surprised at both who's there and who's not!

I am very much enjoying my life......so If in the end I am wrong I have lost nothing.

I believe I could not have said it better. I believe I will be a forgiven soul for all of my many transgressions and sins. If I am wrong then my life will not have been wasted as I know I have touched many with my life and hopefully made theirs better for it. Mine was made better for the way everyone has touch mine, good or bad.

[hnelson59]

Originally posted by Xyress
No? What about legislation against homosexuals? I guess you don't care if they believe the way you do as long as they adhere to your rules?

x - this has been bantered about in another thread. i won't do it in this one. you know my stand on this, but for the record, yes i am against same sex marriage. there - you brought it up again. i also stated that if they are legalized, guess i gotta adhere by the laws of man. if i may inject a little of God's word here . . .

Romans 13

Submission to the Authorities

1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4 For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor. (from the NIV translation)

now i am fairly certain you could run with this, but i put it here for you to realize that as a christian, God's laws are first and foremost in my life, but he reminds me that all things are under his control.

hope that helps.

that first doughnut was really good. now, where did they hide bin laden? i think i saw him in the lincoln memorial.

[Jwilker]

Originally posted by Xyress
In short, I will defend your right to believe what you like, but please do not try to force your beliefs or moralities on others.

:) They're just trying to save you.