... take into consideration that many times it is people that need help, maybe they´re being chased politically, poverty forces them to clean your bathrooms, the "american dream" seduces them to go and have miserable and discriminating lives in the US, etc, etc, etc. Please, be more tolerant with people that have problems and seek aid. Don´t treat them as simple "latinos" in such a rude way, they´re human beings that, in many cases, surely will have more troubles than you´ll ever know.
I know that I´ll get some angry posts after this, also due to the fact that I´m Colombian, but hey, just my 2 cents
I welcome your comments, I am not angered at all by them. I admire many of those who have immigrated or who want to immigrate - I can't imagine going to a foreign country where I hardly understand the language, but want/need to work and make a new life.
But I also want my country to have a way to handle the legal immigration; it seems an issue we have ignored for some time (and I think we end up just putting a band-aid on it, not really addressing the issue). Bottom line, IMHO, is that the USA cannot handle unlimited numbers of immigrants - there must be controls and limits. We can't handle the numbers (in the long run), and we don't want to allow entry to criminals. Thus, not everyone who wants to immigrate will be allowed to, and not everyone will agree on how the limits will be set.
Just my opinion ... (and there's still a lot of work to be done by Congress, so a lot can change before the final plan is sent up to the President, if there is even enough agreement to come up with a compromise bill).
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Nothing like corrupt politicians putting their wants over the needs of the people...
If all these people become citizens, they all get to vote...
The Bush administration can shove this bill, and so can all those who approved it... The USA is going downhill fast, and I don't intend to stay here any longer than i have to...
Just out of curiosity would you (or anyone else that posted here) please site the research (academic or otherwise) that you conducted to arrive at your conclusions. Did you use some sort of statistical data to discern that the majority of the illegals that are in the States leach off the system?
It's called living in it. I don't need a whole lot of scientific research (which by the way is always funded by one group or another and would you believe it almost always seems to favor the funding company) to show me what I can see with my own eyes. I live in a city that is well known for being a central hub of people smuggling. People come here stay a bit and disperse from here to other locals.
I've worked in the most popular areas for them to stay. I've watched them load into the work trucks every morning for the last few years. I've been in the homes where the families (yes multiple) live. I've seen the kids sitting around in nothing but a cloth diaper. I've been in the slums these people call home. I've been in the welfare offices where they collect the money. I've heard the conversations.
Take your "scientific research" and drive into the parts of the city where they are. Better yet ... do it next year on the 5th of May. Just be mindful of the bullets ... what goes up tends to come back down.
Originally Posted by cmlatronica
What research have you done into the history of the living wage movement in the United States to come to the conclusion that it is the low wages illegals work for that keep down the minimum wage?
I don't recall blaming them for the low minumum wage. Matter of fact minimum wage does not apply to them at all, so its a non-issue. Minimum wage applies to legal residents and citizens. Last time I checked "Legal" was not part of the discussion. Matter of fact we woiuldn't be having this conversation if "Legal" immigrants were the topic.
Originally Posted by cmlatronica
Have you read any economic research on the potential affect amnesty will have on the economy? How about reading reports from national security think tanks?
Security Think Tanks. Nope. Think Tank = people brainstorming possible outcomes then attempting to find data that supports the hypothesis. Give a think tank anything to ponder and you'll have as many different outcomes as you do people in the tank!
Potential Affects ... Here's a decent read for you. - READ
Originally Posted by cmlatronica
From the majority of observations made in this post it seems to me that no one is operating with a complete understanding of the issue.
Hopefully this is not your attempt to claim that you are 100% completely informed about the issue. Never claim to be the smartest person in the room. I know I'm not ... even when I'm alone.
Originally Posted by cmlatronica
By and large, this is the reason that politicians aren’t listening, because the majority of people don’t take the time to become educated on a given issue and therefore don’t have anything to do but complain.
You know what ... If the people are educated on a particular issue or not has nothing to do with if our REPRESENTATIVES should listen or not. They represent the people of the United States of America and their personal opinions are only one of the many. They are elected to represent the people ... educated or illiterate ... smart or challenged ... informed or not ... they REPRESENT the people.
By the way ... before anybody gets all upitty about how I feel about the topic, let me get something clear --- I am a Legal Immigrant.
Enjoy your day :)
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I don't think there is a issue with latinos being treated poorly. With the possible exception of being under paid. There are really two problems. 1)Illegal immigrants and 2) Not paying a living wage. The whole concept of jobs americans won't do is whacked. Its such a nice sound bite that everyone falls for it.
This will give you a frame of reference for discussion. I never said I was the smartest person. I would have thought that since I didn't comment on either side of the issue that you would have figured out that I don't think I am educated enough on the issue to offer anything constructive. The Heritage Foundation article you listed is a good one, but Heritage is right leaning. Why not consider the argument of the opposing side? All I was stressing was the importance of considering both sides of an issue.
In the end I have to apologize. Aximsite is an excellent site, but it is not the place for a in-depth discussion of the issue. After comments such as I know because “I live in it" and telling me to take my scientific research to a place in a city where I might be hit by a stray bullet, I can see my comments were out of place.
I totally agree with you, your country has the right to control their borders and to prevent criminals from traspassing their borders. Just a fair tratment from the ordinary people (as I know little about laws) , that´s all I asked for.
netsyd:
It isn´t always so easy to geat the asylum, sometimes it takes more time than the one you have available before you get killed. Of course that it is important to take into consideration the fact that their living conditions are completely absurd in some cases; but it isn´t always the employee´s fault, the employer is to blame in most cases.
To conclude, I think that maybe it would be important to try and fix the situation of illegals but all under some parameters of respect and understanding, especially from the ordinary people like us who, in a great deal, harm those people with our xenophobics´.
Quite frankly the fix to the solution is 3 fold... 2 of them would get the majority and the third would slow, but not prevent the remainder.
1) Piss off republicans by assigning HUGE fines to businesses that employ illegal aliens, make it the employer's responsibility for verifying citizenship. Make the fines cost enough to hurt.
2) Piss of the democrats by denying welfare, medicaid, drivers licenses, and education to illegals. Require green cards or whatever and verify it. Deny medical care other than emergency/life sustaining treatments, THEN deport them.
3) build the wall or expand the existing ones. I doubt this would have any real effect as a 30 minute drive into the desert and 2 ladders would fix that, but the casual crossers MIGHT be disuaded.
You have to make the reasons the people cross for, go away. Sorry no jobs for you. Sorry no medical care for you, Sorry no welfare for you. The remainder would have to be criminal of some nature, even if just due to forged documents or identy theft... The ones you catch, prosecute and deport.
Once you get the above 2 (or 3) in place, then work out some sort of Work Visa program
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I must admit that I don´t know much about the politics over in the United States of America; I say it like that because America is a whole continent and not only YOUR country
America is apart of the northern american continent, who ever said anything about america or americans implying that the USA owns all of N. America? Mexico has their own lands in N. America, The USA isn't invading mexico, its the other way around, you need to adress this concern of yours to mexicans who think that N. America is solely their's(and yes they think canada is their's also)
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But I don´t agree with some of the things you said: The way you refer to the "latinos", yes, I know there are thousands of illegals but take into account how much they weigh into your precious economy, OMG what would be of it if it wasn´t because of the "latinos". I know you´d still have the option to invade and masacre other countries for their oil but, nevertheless, latinos represent great incomes to your economy.
1. MILLIONS of illegals, in fact TENS of MILLIONS of illegals are inside the US right now with the number increasing by about a million a year.
2. this is what I said:
"Canadians will no longer be able to get better health care by just coming across the boarder(legally, and we welcome them legally, oh and they also pay for it out of pocket too, unlike the latinos)"
-lets talk reality here:
1. Canadians cross the boarder legally(for the most part)
Mexicans cross the boarder illegally(for the most part)
2. Canadians come to america and pay out of pocket for medical care that they cannot get(in a timely manner) in canada and then they go back home.
Mexicans come to america for work and a better life but when medical care is in need they get the best medical care in the world at the law abiding tax paying american's expense.
what did I say that was wrong that offended you? the truth?
3. Illegals actually take more from americans then they give back. they don't pay taxes and they get free schooling, free health care, free social services, ALL at the law abiding tax paying american's expense.
4. latinos represent great incomes: First lets seperate latinos from illegals. Legal americans that are from latin countries do not count in this agrument, they came here legally and we welcome them. they abide by our laws(for the most part) and we welcome them, they work hard they follow the rules and laws and they pay taxes like any other american and we welcome them.
illegals represent great incomes, low skilled labor represents great incomes????
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I know that the people from the US aren´t happy with so many people "invading" their territory. But all I ask of you is the following; take into consideration that many times it is people that need help, maybe they´re being chased politically, poverty forces them to clean your bathrooms, the "american dream" seduces them to go and have miserable and discriminating lives in the US, etc, etc, etc. Please, be more tolerant with people that have problems and seek aid. Don´t treat them as simple "latinos" in such a rude way, they´re human beings that, in many cases, surely will have more troubles than you´ll ever know.
yes mexicans need help, and they aren't getting it from the corrupt mexican government. Mexico is rich in natural resources. Mexico can be a an industrialized nation that could rival both america and canada, but the mexican government is corrupt and is denying that from the people of mexico.
mexicans are not being chased politically, the mexicans are being told and pushed into illegally entering and illegally residing in america to work and to send the money back into mexico so that the government doesn't have to do what it's suppose to do. Illegal aliens in america send more money back to mexico then america spends on it's "ENTIRE" forien aid. Mexico's government forces mexicans into poverty and then tells them to invade another country and send money back.
to legal americans from latin countries the American dream is one of the greatest gifts anyone can recieve through hard work and making smart decisions.
even to illegal aliens the american dream is one of the greatest gift anyone can recieve. the majority of illegals make at least twice the minimum wage. they are pulling 12-20 dollars an hour and they are working 40+ hours a week. alot of illegals are living at the poverty level or above it, an american making the same amount of money can't live at the illegal's level because they have to pay taxes.
they are immune to alot of laws(illegals are killing alot of americans everyday drinking and driving and they're immune) and the chances that they would be deported in caught is slim to none.
they are living the american dream plus some and the law abiding tax paying citizens of the US are paying for it.
Mexicans have problems(corrupt government) and they aren't seeking america's help, if that was the case they would be seeking help from america to do something about the corrupt government. mexicans are being brain washed into invading america.
THIS IS AMERICAN POLITICS. Yeah mexicans have probelms but when they bring their problems into my home their problems become mine along with my own problems.
You have no knowledge in what exactly the reality of this problem is.
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In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock.
3) build the wall or expand the existing ones. I doubt this would have any real effect as a 30 minute drive into the desert and 2 ladders would fix that, but the casual crossers MIGHT be disuaded.
why is everyone giving up on this?
if they put ladders on the wall to get over, put barbed wire on top, if they can get over that electrify the wall, if they can get over that, dig a deep(10-20 feet deep) mout(sp?) if they can get over that put barbed wire before and after the mout and wall, if they can get over that build a series of walls with barbed wire that electrified and mouts, if they can get over that: hey that's the kind of enginuity(sp?) and determination that america needs. if someone is willing to go thru all of that to become an american then we need them frankly. illegal aliens are a given and there's no stoping that but lets at least make it where we get only the best illegals.
we can't possibily stop all those that want to illegally enter this country, but we can dramatically stop tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, from illegally entering america every year.
it's like a auto-theft deterent. Even the best auto-theft deterents can't stop a car from being stolen, but that's not the purpose of the deterent, it's to slow the process down dramatically and to bring attention to the car, we can't stop all illegals but we can slow down the invasion.
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In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock.
Had anyone think that all these discussions are alienating legal and illegal immigrants in the same way? Everyone is talking about integration and assimilation into the american culture (or lack thereof), but when you turn on every single news show and all you hear is immigration (most of the time with bad connotations) immigrants will tend to isolate themselves from a unwelcoming country making assimilation even harder.
That is easy... The ones that would ned assimilation can't speak english anyway.
No harm, no foul
Well, some people can't even recognize the problem without being offended. You can't speak to those people like that and they would have little to bring to the discussion except for attitude and indignation.
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We have serious problems to solve, and we need serious people to solve them. And whatever your particular problem is, I promise you Insert politician here is not the least bit interested in solving it. He is interested in two things, and two things only: making you afraid of it, and telling you who's to blame for it.
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"Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost." -- John Quincy Adams
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THERE IS NO LEADERSHIP ANYWHERE, THIS COUNTRY IS RUN BY CORRUPT POWER/MONEY HUNGRY PIGS, PIGS THAT DON'T CARE IF THEY'RE DESTORYING THIS COUNTRY. I CANNOT BELIEVE THE CORRUPTION. this has to be the most corrupt government we've ever had. left and right up and down, corruption is everywhere.
What's new??
Tell us how you really feel. Geez!! :wtf:
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if they put ladders on the wall to get over, put barbed wire on top, if they can get over that electrify the wall, if they can get over that, dig a deep(10-20 feet deep) mout(sp?) if they can get over that put barbed wire before and after the mout and wall, if they can get over that build a series of walls with barbed wire that electrified and mouts, if they can get over that: hey that's the kind of enginuity(sp?) and determination that america needs. if someone is willing to go thru all of that to become an american then we need them frankly. illegal aliens are a given and there's no stoping that but lets at least make it where we get only the best illegals.
we can't possibily stop all those that want to illegally enter this country, but we can dramatically stop tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, from illegally entering america every year.
it's like a auto-theft deterent. Even the best auto-theft deterents can't stop a car from being stolen, but that's not the purpose of the deterent, it's to slow the process down dramatically and to bring attention to the car, we can't stop all illegals but we can slow down the invasion.
HELL YES! finally someone thinking the same way I think.. whenever I state my opinion I get about 20 angry stares on each side of me.
if ever you get a huge army together to go overthrow the government let me know, I'd be only too happy to join
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