rodent

oh 'cmon, this thread was just getting to be fun and then it went over the cliff into talking about cool classic cars...let's get this started again

fact of the matter is that developers spend their TIME -- which is really their life if you think about it for just a second -- to create programs and it's their choice on how they want to get compensated for their time/life....some want to enter the competitive arena for commercial software in which providing a free demo is really a requirement for new software without an installed customer base, some want to provide it for free.

the reasons for the developers decision are immaterial; it's his or her choice on how they choose to spend their time/life not anyone elses. just because someone else "wants", no one has a duty to provide their time/life for free...that used to be called "slavery".

free and commercial software are both cool...let 'em both flower and compete...stop whining about the developers who are taking the entrepreneurial approach and trying to get value for the value they're providing...if you don't like the price or the demo, SHOCK...don't buy it since no one's putting a gun to your head!....in the end, the market will determine what it will pay for the software.

and i'm sure glad no one was naive enough to claim that only commercial software has bugs...;)

btw, Linus had an interesting interview on news.com recently in which he saw the real value of the GPL as being a way to manage code forks and be able to bring a forked path back into the mainstream...a GREAT view that you really don't hear

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JordanMills

Contrary to the opinions of other posters, I see the fact that you're right. If developer makes something, they determine how it is distributed. I don't disagree with that and (again contrary to what previous posters claim) I don't attempt to illegally circumvent that. Reason doesn't matter, it's the way law and convention work. You make it, it's yours to do with as you please.

I don't like being nickled and dimed, so I don't buy. If I really need something, I make it myself. That's where most of my software comes from, meeting a need that I have, and sharing the results of my research with others.

I'd be pretty dumb for saying that only commercial software has bugs right after I said I was answering a tech support email about a bug in one of my programs. :)

That is a good view. I'm not the classic slashdot-loving OSS fanatic, but I think the GPL is a good way to make sure that something you make for free won't be usurped by someone else for their own profit (in my view, the stealing comes when they take your work without credit. Don't get me wrong, duplicating a copyrighted work in a manner inconsistent with law is illegal, but it's not theft, it's copyright infringement. Theft would be if I walked in a store, took a boxed copy off the shelf, and walked out without paying).

Ohayden

Well said Rodent... I couldn't have stated it any better.

I work very hard at what I do. I do it out of a passion for programming... not just for monetary value. JordanMills.... your little analogy is crap. I don't just program for money as a professor doesn't just teach for money. Where do you get off trying to know who I am? If I did it for the money... I would have quit a looooooooong time ago due to people like you. The people who want everything free yesterday including the kitchen sink.

My point is, you have NO right telling developers to make thier programs FREE. If they choose to do so, that's their decision, NOT YOURS! If you really think Plam has bigger better more free software... then go Palm.

You asked the question... I answered. Don't like the answer? Do post the question.

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JordanMills

Lemme get this straight then. You can tell me that you work hard and you think everyone should charge for everything, but I can't tell people that they should not charge for everything? And because I don't conform to your inequal world view, I am personally responsible for the downfall of the programming industry?

Gimmie a break.

Ohayden

Did I ever said that developers shouldn't offer freeware? On the contrary, I said it's a great thing to do... but not everyone can offer everything free. Get a life... don't expect everything for FREE.

When did I say you were responsible for the downfall of the programming industry? Once again... making things up?

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JordanMills

Quote:

Originally posted by Ohayden My point is, you have NO right telling developers to make thier programs FREE.

Where did I tell developers to make their programs free? Even still, don't I have just as much right to say they should be free as you do to say they should charge? And then you go and bring in personal attacks. I was thinking that's the kind of argument you wanted to get.

So, since you want it personal, why are you so madly opposed to someone putting something out for free?

rodent

slightly off topic, but if you haven't seen this already, check out Creative Commons at http://www.creativecommons.org/ in a nutshell, it's lawrence lessig's brainchild to provid a range of boilerplate licenses based upon the desires of the developer...very interesting and practical....gives you some more alternatives the to gpl, lpgl, bsd, mozilla, apache, etc style of licenses

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Ohayden

Quote:

Originally posted by JordanMills Where did I tell developers to make their programs free?

How about here...

Quote:

Originally posted by JordanMills Why are so many PPC developers enamored of for-pay software?

and how about here!

Quote:

Originally posted by JordanMills Post up some freeware or open source.

Now... where do I say developers shouldn't give out freeware? As a matter of fact, I said:

Quote:

Originally posted by Ohayden If they choose to do so, that's their decision, NOT YOURS!

and...

Quote:

Originally posted by Ohayden I love freeware. But I don't expect there be freeware for everything out there!

You made it personal when you attacked my profession.

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JordanMills

I did not attack your profession. It's MY profession too. Don't hold me to blame for your illiteracy.

Ohayden

Hmmm... switching subject eh? Couldn't answer my questions? I answered yours. So basically you can make comments and put words in others mouths, but you can't back it up?

Illiterate? Uh-huh... I see. I see where YOU want to take this thread. So... I give up you win.

The whole world should be FREE. Let's all do everything for free. Let's revolt and stop paying our bills and stop cashing our paychecks. Let's create the free society... it's etopia.

I give up on you. Continue thinking everyone should make their programs for free and to your benefit. I quit... you win.

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ParaAxim

Hey guys, shouldn't there be some kind of Professional Guild for programers like for doctors and lawyers? Shouldn't there be some kind of industry wide control over what a product claims it will do and a programer held to some sort of standard and responsibility for their work and claims? Just a thought.

JordanMills

Quote:

Originally posted by Ohayden Hmmm... switching subject eh? Couldn't answer my questions? I answered yours. So basically you can make comments and put words in others mouths, but you can't back it up? Illiterate? Uh-huh... I see. I see where YOU want to take this thread. So... I give up you win. The whole world should be FREE. Let's all do everything for free. Let's revolt and stop paying our bills and stop cashing our paychecks. Let's create the free society... it's etopia. I give up on you. Continue thinking everyone should make their programs for free and to your benefit. I quit... you win.

No, I got tired of the irrelevant personal attacks and mindless repetition.

You keep bleating that I say everything should be free. I most certainly do not. I'm decrying the lack of free/open software for the pocket pc platform. You challenged me to put my money where my mouth is, and I showed you that I already have. What I will continue doing is making MY programs free for everyones benefit. And if the thank you notes are any indication, it definately benefits people.

Ohayden

If you don't like personal attacks then don't attack. You began the trolling by posting that developers need to post up some freeware in a developer area. You didn't think you would get flamed? Sanity check here pal.

Your right, I challenged you... but you DID NOT show me anything other than your closed minded ramblings.

I'm all for freeware and it's great that people can offer freeware. Some of us depend on pay software for a living and can't afford to offer everything for free though. If people choose to buy my pay ware over someone's freeware... that tells you something.

I'm still interested in your freeware. I asked you to show me where it is... so where is it? I would love to check it out.

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mrbreakit

Wow. Way off topic now.

I am a software developer. I think that developers should be charging for their PPC software. Absolutely. They work hard on it and they should get money for it. A developer that is getting money for his creation will put more effort into it. This makes better products for the consumers.

Dont get me started on the open source software... Releases of incomplete programs. Updates-upgrades are few. Buggy. Etc. And the source code. My God! I have NEVER seen an open source project that was properly documented. Sloppy, buggy, amateur code. I guess that is the software I would be making, if I werent getting paid.

JordanMills

Quote:

Originally posted by Ohayden If you don't like personal attacks then don't attack. You began the trolling by posting that developers need to post up some freeware in a developer area. You didn't think you would get flamed? Sanity check here pal. Your right, I challenged you... but you DID NOT show me anything other than your closed minded ramblings. I'm all for freeware and it's great that people can offer freeware. Some of us depend on pay software for a living and can't afford to offer everything for free though. If people choose to buy my pay ware over someone's freeware... that tells you something. I'm still interested in your freeware. I asked you to show me where it is... so where is it? I would love to check it out.

Sanity checks out okay. Plenty of developers I know make free software. We post about it in forums all the time. Where's the trolling?

You challenged me, and I showed you that anything I write for use by more than a specific client, I release under the GPL. Apparently you then got it in your head that I'm a typical linux zealot that's GPL or nothing. Talk about closed minded.

Check the link I posted earlier. You know, my business page. Plenty of stuff around there that does what only for-pay software did before I made it, and it's pretty popular now. I was only playing with the idea of making a few things for PPC when I posted it (wondering where people that think like me that develop for other platforms are), but you went and hacked me off. I'm upgrading your apps to GPL next.