Ohayden

You are SUCH a freaking liar. You have NO applications offered on your website. If your talking about the "scripts" and MSI install then you are a complete idiot. Those are not applications. Scripting is NOT programming. No wonder you offer your crap for free. No one would pay for that rubbish. Your nothing more than a troll.

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Ohayden,

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JordanMills

Yep, you're next.

Ohayden

I agree with mrbreakit 100%. It's the choice of a programmer to do what he wants with his code. 9 times out of 10 much more effort is put into a project if it's going to be sold.

JordanMills, you are a complete moron. First off you know nothing about me. You know nothing about the software I write, so for you to make threats, well it just shows that your a punk kid with no respect.

Once again I call you on your bullshit card. You are NOT a programmer. Your nothing more than a script kiddie. Go away and write some more exchange scripts. No wonder why you don't care about the "code"... it's nothing more than a simplex script.

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cageyjames

OK guys. You both need to stop the name calling and get back on topic. If you don't, I close the thread.

I personally get paid money to develop software for the Navy. I try and support developers who do a good job and let people know which ones are liars (See my attacks on the program Handango calls the most popular utility). That is the whole point of this fourm. To learn about what works and what to stay away from. Saying that all PPC developers are bad because they are charging money is incorrect as is saying all open source software is crap.

That said, scripting and developing are two completely different things. Anyone can code a webpage, but that doesn't mean they are a developer. While I don't consider it developing, it is refreshing to see you offering these scripts back to the community. I've created some of my own just like these and wish I had know you had them before I spent all my time working on them.

JeffLewis

Thank you, JC.

There are lots of freeware developers and not all programmers program solely for the bux. In fact, aren't eVB and eVC, the two most commonly used development platforms for PocketPC currently free?

I'm a long time programmer - over 30 years this year - and I make a perfectly good living in my day job, which leaves me free to write nice little toys in the evening. Even though they're free, I'm a one time nominee for MacWorld Best Shareware award and my software has been promoted by Apple and included in many top 100 shareware lists. One of my products is currently integrated into Microsoft Windows 2K and XP. (Not bragging - just establishing that I'm not a hobbyist - I can provide confirmation if anyone doubts me...)

I've never once charged for an app I created on my own time. No one is saying Ohayden shouldn't charge, but I agree with the original poster (among others here) who wonder why some software out there is being charged for when they're utter crap or are very basic or based on free information.

Case in point, I went looking for an area code list - those are free on PalmOS devices, but on Pocket PC, all the ones I found at the time wanted $10. I mean - geeze - this is like 5 mins of coding time and a quick cut and paste of any area code list you can find for free on the web.

Now that .NET CF is integrated into WM2003 - this becomes even simpler, and we don't even have to worry about ensuring that the runtime is installed.

Do developers have a right to charge for their stuff? Yep. Should the be ashamed that they are? Well, more should be than are, in my opinion. :)

On a slightly related topic, I'm looking for ideas for freeware applications for PocketPCs - things that would be generally useful.

Any suggestions?

Ohayden

JeffLewis,

I'm sure you already know this, but the BEST freeware and payware comes from the same place. Out of the need for a particular program. I would go with what you need and take it from here. Fox example:

My current home project is that I have a need to secure my excel / word documents on my PPC. So I started a two phase plan.

Phase 1: Develop 255 bit encryption routines (already done) into componets that I could reuse in other apps and sell. This is where I want to make a few dollars.

Phase 2: Create the actual app that will do the encryption of files (explorer like window). This will be offered as FREEWARE and will be advertise about the controls it's using.

I made the mistake of using VB.NET, which can be decompiled and my routines completly free. So I now have to rewrite parts of it in eVC (mainly the control). But it will be offered as freeware and the controls offered as payware.

I agree with you on the point that programmers should not be selling crap. That's why communities like this exist. Most of the software I purchase I always ask others who use it to see if it's crap. There is a ton of crap out there. Some of it free... some of it payware. Should the programmers charge for this? Well it's their choice. But the trick is, we shouldn't blindly pay for just any old thing. If no one buys their crap, hopefully they will change.

I personally wouldn't charge for 5 minutes of programming. And if I release something and it's crap... well I don't expect people to buy it. My other point, never buy anything unless you can test the complete and FULL program.

In all, there is a TON of stuff out there. Maybe not as much as palm, but understand the PPC is not as established as palm. We are getting there. With the help of both payware and freeware. I personally believe payware and freeware compliment each other.

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JordanMills

Quote:

Originally posted by JeffLewis I've never once charged for an app I created on my own time. No one is saying Ohayden shouldn't charge, but I agree with the original poster (among others here) who wonder why some software out there is being charged for when they're utter crap or are very basic or based on free information. ... Do developers have a right to charge for their stuff? Yep. Should the be ashamed that they are? Well, more should be than are, in my opinion. :)

That's what I was trying to say, except you got it down short and sweet. Thanks.

Quote:

Originally posted by JeffLewis On a slightly related topic, I'm looking for ideas for freeware applications for PocketPCs - things that would be generally useful.

Yep, current project is a no-subscription weather bar for the today screen. PM or email if you're interested. :)

Ohayden

When stated like that... I agree with you completly. If it's crap they should be embarrassed to sell it. But it is still their choice. As it is also our choice to boycott their apps. I seen some apps released as what I would consider much lees than the par, but only to be improved upon later on. But if a developer is only releasing crap just to make a quick buck, then he'll only burn himself in the end.

Good luck with your app.

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JordanMills

It seems I didn't state it clearly at first, but I fully believe (you know, like the law says) that when someone makes and releases a program, they can release it under any terms they like. I may not like it, but that's not their problem, I don't have to use it. If I do, I'll do it under their terms.

Albegor

Ohayden and other real developers have my full support.
I'm in Italy and just this morning I got involved in a similar discussion in an italian newsgroup because someone ranted about free and commercial software in the same way.
I'm pretty new to the PPC development platform, but it didn't take me too much time to notice there's a lot of overpriced crap software for it.
This however doesn't justify anyone to whine against honest developers who work with passion.
They should start searching better instead of whining, because there are very good PPC programs out there.
Good demos are definitely a plus, that's why we make them, don't we?;)

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JeffLewis

Well, now that we're all happy here again, I'd rather not pour oil on the embers, so let's not do that. :)

I do feel a need to take exception on one point though that I feel I may not have communicated well.

There's a strong belief all around (not just here) that getting paid motivates any person to do better work. I have to say that that's simply not my experience at all. This is the 'you get what you pay for' concept which is almost cliche - and like most cliches, have a grain - but only a grain - of truth.

I still believe that a good and conscientious worker, especially one who loves what they do, does good work because he or she IS conscientious and loves what they do and that no amount of money will change that, only make it easier to express it. On the flip side (based on way too many years as a programmer for consulting firms like Systemhouse), you're almost regularly hamstrung by your employing company's need to make profit (or your own needs if you're self-employed).

Most companies don't set schedules by quality, they set them by marketing deadlines which often have no relation to real world needs. One of my friends works for an education software company and they have to release new versions every four months. Period. If they're done, they're done. If not, they're done. In truth, there's only one real deadline - June 1 which is when most schools start buying their software, but there are three conferences and major magazine reviews for which they regularly release new versions. As a result, they spend almost all their time, weekends, evenings... working constantly to meet the deadlines. I find it difficult to imagine this product ever being the best it can be.

The best the programming staff can do is ensure that at least it's not horribly buggy or crappy and pray a lot. Keep in mind, this is NOT a cheap piece of software.

One reason I don't charge for my non-work programming is that it allows me to spend as much time on it as I want to. I can release it only when I'm ready to release it - when I feel it's really, honestly done. It also means I write these things for myself - to meet my expectations. This is my art. :)

It's also a way to compensate for all the horrid compromises I have to make in my work related programming.

As for value, Borland, many, many years ago, buried the idea that price and quality have any real correlation. When they released Turbo Pascal V1, they priced it very high - around $600, I think. They didn't sell many copies. Then, over the course of six months, they slowly lowered the price until it was down to $99 where sales peaked. Bizarrely, as the price dropped below $99 sales actually *dropped*, quite dramatically in fact!

When they returned the price back to $99, sales returned to their previous peak. Borland managed to demonstrate that the perceived value for TP1 was $99. No more, no less. That shot down the notion that price equates to quality - and even more amazingly, shot down the notion that just making things ever cheaper will always increase sales (a lesson supply-side economics fans should pay attention to, since this was a major contributor to what caused the 1929 stock market crash...).

The truth should also have been obvious: the market (ie: the consumers) determines the value of a product, not the producers. As a result, as I often have to point out - everyone has a right to *try* to get paid for their work by putting it out on the market, but no one has a right *to* get paid for it. The market can always reject the product at the price the producer wants to charge.

Heh, sorry - waxed pedantic there.

Cheers,
JL