[QUOTE]Originally posted by bodizadfa
[B]if I remember my history lessons correctly, the "allies" were taking one on the chin before the US got actively involved.
I guess the US could have taken on the whole Axis machine single-handedly, right ?
look what the atom bomb did to Japan. it would have been very, very ugly and many more lives would have been lost but yes. the fact that the axis powers were spread so thin by attacking England, France, Poland and Russia did make it less difficult. if you can call anything about a world war "less difficult".
Originally posted by Astounded EEG crazyfish: re: "other allies" in WWII: I know where you're coming from, but....NO.
A lot of the "other Allies" made remarkable and important contributions in the war--the Brits/RAF (which included pilots from other countries, including Nazi occupied Europe) were amazing in the Battle of Britain (and Hitler correspondingly stupid/insane)--but IMO,
1. Free Europe could never have defeated Hitler without the United States.
2. I think the United States could have defeated Hitler without the other Allies (though without Russia it would have been extremely hard), if Britain won the Battle of Britain so that the U.S. could stage attacks from it. If Britain lost and Operation Sea Lion was successful, I think we wouldn't have entered the war, at least not on the ground in Europe.[/B]
On top of that, where do you think almost all the Allies except Russia got most of their tanks, jeeps, airplanes and trucks? There's a reason that when you buy a model of an American-made WWII airplane it comes with decals for 3 different countries.
Last edited by Astounded EEG; 08-02-03 at 10:55 PM.
Originally posted by Astounded EEG i'll post it again...
On top of that, where do you think almost all the Allies except Russia got most of their tanks, jeeps, airplanes and trucks? There's a reason that when you buy a model of an American-made WWII airplane it comes with decals for 3 different countries.
Before this becomes a battle of the xenophobes, the U.S hasn't won any war, including the Revolution, without help from another country. It was the Allies that won WWI, WWII, (skip over Korean and Vietnam) Desert Storm I, II, III, (ad nauseum). To suggest that we would have beat the Nazi's without Russia and Britain is ludicrous. (sp?) Were we ready to engage an Eastern front?
Wave your flag all you want, but respect the power of an alliance.
Europe is AFRAID of the U.S - Europe is the way it is now - not all speaking German, or Russian for that matter, because of the U.S! How soon they forget.
Without the British in Africa (where the Allies actually fought some french colonists(!) and the US took a good beating in their first contact with Germans) which gave the possibility for an invasion in south Europe (were the Allies invaded before Normandie) and the Russians on the east front, a successful invasion would have been extremely difficult, perhaps impossible and definitly longer.
Who can say what would have happened then. Perhaps the Germans would have gotten the Nuke? After all, the US made it with the help of many german scientists. Where would the world be then? Perhaps we would all be speaking German. Or maybe US would be a protectorate of Russia? No one knows.
As for the war in the Pacific, the British did some outstanding work in Asia too.
It is sad that in many discussions about politics an American feels the need to tell all Europeans too sit still and shut up because without the US we would all be speaking German.
I think I should concede on my assertion. Mind you i didn't make it from a political gung-ho/ultra-patriotic perspective, I'm actually somewhat confused as to where I stand on patriotism, but I was trying (not so successfully) to take a realistic perspective. It also depends on what single-handedly" means--passive resistance? intelligence info? zilch help? it also depends somewhat on whether the U.S. would have entered the war in 1939 when it started or 1941/1942 when we actually entered.
anyway a major factor worth considering is the "calculus of battle," as i will call it. anyone who has played multiplayer online strategy games should be somewhat familiar with how this works. Every reduction in your starting power leads to a proportionally [much] larger change in the outcome of the battle. Let's say 40 guys easily defeat a group of 30 guys--no contest. If the fight is repeated with 35 guys on the former team instead of 40, the outcome could go from a clear, easy victory to a stalemate.
In the case of WWII, especially if you remove Russia from the Allies, the scale could easily tip to defeat. In addition, everybody says that if Hitler had just had a little longer to develop his jet fighters they could have revolutionized the warscape.
And there are other factors to consider, especially nuclear weapon development. and was Russia supplying oil to the germans under brest-litovsk?
and now some trivia (source: http://members.aol.com/TeacherNet/WWII.html and http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/2WWarmedforces.htm):
- British Army by June 1945: 2.9 million men
- French Army evacuated from Dunkirk: 140,000 men
- German Army, total who served throughout the war:12.5 million men (3/3.5 million killed)
- Italian Army ~1940: 72 divisions (12 divisions by the time Allies invaded Italy)
- Japanese Army by 1945: 5.5 million men
- Red Army at its peak: 12.5 million men (ammo?)
- U.S. Army - men employed in WWII: 10.4 million
(numbers obviously don't reflect national capacities, training, or equipment.)
- Japanese Navy: 14 major aircraft carriers, 10 light carriers
- U.S. Navy: 34 major aircraft carriers, 81 light carriers (escort carriers)
(source: http://www.voodoo.cz/ww2car/)
Well thought out, and well stated. I spent 9 years living in Europe, 4 in G.B., and 5 in Germany, and I was able to see things from a different perspective. Wallatu makes some very good points too.
But alas, many of the children of today will probably be fed the flag waving rhetoric, even when we (the U.S.) invade a non-threatening country, that happens to have a despot in charge, to protect our...er...interests.
I'm not sure why this thread is on an Axim site, but what the hey. My father and mother both fought in WWII (he RAF, she Russian Freedom Fighter, captured by the Nazis at one point and held in a concentration camp).
My father has talked about this at length and he's convinced what really did Hitler in was his attempt to take Russia on directly. The German loss at the Battle of Stalingrad (2 Feb 43)marked the first major defeat of the Germans in the war and began a cascade of losses throughout eastern Europe.
It should also be noted that the USSR lost over 20M people in WWII - including 7M civilians.
Let's also not forget that the US (and Russia, while we're at it) joined the European war fairly late in the game (1942) and entered it fairly fresh, while the rest of the allies had been there (on and off) since 1939. It's easy to join late and then take credit, ignoring all the work the previous groups had been doing. Unlike the US, whose population was fairly shielded from the main combat, Russia and the other allies were actively being attacked and had to coordinate munitions, materiel and combat all at the same time while their civilians were being attacked.
Did the US win WWII? No. Were they a valuable partner, indispensible even, absolutely. But it's disingenuous to assume the US could have done it on their own and it's highly disrespectful of the millions of people who fought for three years before the US showed up and fought alongside the US for the following two and a bit years.
It's this kind of attitude which loses respect for Americans around the world.
As for patriotism: I'm a Canadian. We're a quietly patriotic people. We love our country and we've managed to create a culture that's fairly distinct in the world. We achieved independence without war (except when the US tries to invade us to 'liberate' us against our will, which they've done six times in the past 400 years - the War of 1812 being the last time). We have many distinct cultures and two official languages and we've never had a civil war. We've even had an opposition party at the federal level who was elected solely on a mandate to separate their province from the rest of the country. And we dealt with that without any violence. We live each day right next to one of the most powerful countries on the planet (the most, by some people's measure) which constantly hits us with bizarre and strange trade actions (softwood lumber, wheat, steel and so on) and we manage to survive.
Yet you'll rarely find a flag waving here, or a flag stuck to a car. You'll rarely hear a Canadian brag about their accomplishments.
Hitler's big mistake was Russia. He tried to take Russia on when he had troups in Africa, France, and all over Europe. If he had just waited until he could have concentrated his entire force at once, then he might have actually succeeded.
Of course, that was also Napoleon's mistake. :)
And I agree with the others, well said.
__________________ There are only two truly infinite things, the universe and human stupidity; I am unsure of the former.
-Albert Einstein
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