pdahound

Originally Posted by reese

Homo-sexuality is a question of morality IMHO. Most christians don't like it and see it as immoral. Many athiests, including most of my friends, also think it is immoral. Religion isn't so much the factor here as it is a question of morality. This thread should have never mentioned religion, its a morality question. Also, most religions don't support homosexuality, its not just the Christians. This is an example of athiests trying to make christians look bad, and do an bad job at it (notice the sig of the person who brought religion into this)

I don't generally bash religions. Some I believe, some I don't. Where do morals come from? Are they not mostly religious based?

cloud909

Originally Posted by StanleyR1

(Although the parenthetical snipe was uncalled for.)

My bad... I have a tendency to let my own feelings regarding organized religion get the better of me sometimes. My apologies for the snide remark.

Originally Posted by StanleyR1

However you surprised me when you yourself then equated Christians to be bigoted, closed minded, and discriminatory...

When I state anything negative regarding "Christians", I'm speaking of the ones who do not follow "God's Word", the ones who, regardless of what they're taught, still have a place for hatred and discrimination and bigotry in their hearts.

Originally Posted by StanleyR1

MOST Christians are just like MOST PEOPLE. They are honest, intelligent, tolerant, and understanding. They are both respectful and accepting of the differences between people. And their beliefs, again like most people's, are well founded and reasoned. Not based simply on what they're told.

While I appreciate the affirming words regarding Christians, I have to disagree with you. While it would be nice to believe that Christians, as a whole, are not only honest and intelligent, but also tolerant and understanding, the truth of the matter is that Christians, along with every other sect of people in this world, have their faults. To generalize Christians as being the most tolerant and understanding of people is, unfortunately, far from the truth.

Originally Posted by StanleyR1

It may appear to you that Most behave as you say but that's because you, like many people, have taken the few extreme examples that you've come across, either in your personal life or in the news, and arbitrarily generalized them to the entire Christian population.

While some people may do this, I personally don't believe this to be the case for myself. I'm surrounded by Christians day in and day out. I see the extreme good and the extreme bad that Christianity can cause for people and their personalities. I'm dating a Christian, who I believe is one of the most sincere, genuine, understanding, patient people alive. I work with another Christian who talks about how she wants to cheat on her husband with the messenger boy who comes into the office. I work with another Christian who condemns homosexuals and states that they're all going to hell and how they're all sinners, yet she is proud of the fact that she sleeps with more men than she can keep track of. What I believe is that Christians (along with any other organized religion, actually) need something to believe... they're told what to believe, and they follow it. Regardless of whether it's a pastor, a priest, a fellow Christian or some evangelist on the television, Christians will believe what they are told if it deals with their religious beliefs.

Originally Posted by StanleyR1

This thread is a classic example of that. One extremist legislator proposed one extreme piece of legislation. As near as I can tell (and yes, I looked) it has absolutely no support, but based on his action people here are now bashing both the entire State of Alabama, and Christians in general. And yet NOTHING I've read has given any indication that the views expressed by Alabama State Rep. Gerald Allen are representative of either the people of Alabama or most Christians.

I believe you're absolutely right. I believe that the proposed legislation is an extreme act which couldn't possibly follow through, let alone get carried out and taken seriously. However, it does scare me that the article has stated that this proposed bill has the support of President Bush. Surprised? No... hardly.

I personally think that people shouldn't be bashing "Alabama" as a whole... that's ridiculous (almost as ridiculous as the proposed bill itself), and bashing Christians is pointless. Religious beliefs of all types have been around for centuries and centuries. What I do think should happen is that these religious "fanatics" need to ask themselves why they think homosexuality is immoral or wrong, outside of the bible. Without any reference to any passage in the bible, they need to ask themselves why they think gay people are so wrong and so immoral (and give up the whole "they don't procreate, so it's just wrong" excuse. There are plenty of straight working families that don't have children... are they damned to hell as well?)

Anyway... :rolling: This is why I didn't want to get into a religious debate.

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frankenbike

Originally Posted by reese

Homo-sexuality is a question of morality IMHO. Most christians don't like it and see it as immoral. Many athiests, including most of my friends, also think it is immoral.

Most? Many?

The problem, as I see it, is people can't just speak for themselves, they always have to collectivize their opinions to give them more weight.

Frankly, I think homosexuality is one of those things that are an issue for people who can't mind their own business.

When I was young, in a time when homosexuals were still well in the closet, I had a friend. We were 10 or 12 years old, and our concentration was still on kid stuff. Mostly nerdy kid stuff, though I did already have a dirt bike by then and was racing on weekends.

My mom, ever the excellent judge of character, said that when he called he sounded like a "faygela".

He wasn't overtly effeminate, but he also never quite fit in either. Never heard him mention it in high school, he hung around with the people more nerdy than I, while I hung with a different nerdy crowd of dirt bikers, musicians and car buffs.

Fast forward a few years to college. I'm an editor on the campus paper, and his name is on an event announcement. He was president of the Gay Student Union.

All this goes to say, without any outside influences, gay people seem to manifest themselves as gay without ever knowing it, before they even reach puberty.

I worked with a guy who I'd swear was gay. He wasn't. But his twin brother was.

I don't claim to understand it. But some people are just attracted to their own sex. If you talk to them (at least the ones that aren't bisexual), they'll say (male version), "You know how you'd feel about having sex with another man? That's the same creepy feeling I get when I think about having sex with a woman."

(female version), "You know how you feel about seeing a woman naked? That's the same feeling I get. You know the feeling you get when you think about having sex with a man? That's also the same feeling I get."

As for bisexuals, I like the Woody Allen quote: "Bisexuality doubles your chances of a date on a Saturday night."

I'm pretty sure that at the time most homosexuals figure out that they are homosexual, generally during their teens, they ask themselves, "Why me?"

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DSmithZ28

Originally Posted by jpmarth

. . Hurray!! Another thread that this pic is appropriate to post in. . OK, you can resume the squabbling now. .

I couldn't agree with you more jpmarth! Awesome pic and post!

cloud909

Originally Posted by DSmithZ28

I couldn't agree with you more jpmarth! Awesome pic and post!

Oh, look... if it isn't king dimwit posting another unintelligent post to make himself feel better about having ugly children

Thumbs up to you, sir. :approve:

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DSmithZ28

Originally Posted by reese

Homo-sexuality is a question of morality IMHO. Most christians don't like it and see it as immoral. Many athiests, including most of my friends, also think it is immoral. Religion isn't so much the factor here as it is a question of morality. This thread should have never mentioned religion, its a morality question. Also, most religions don't support homosexuality, its not just the Christians. This is an example of athiests trying to make christians look bad, and do an bad job at it (notice the sig of the person who brought religion into this)

Everyone talks about the Religious objection, ok. The Legal objection, ok, now, the moral objection, ok, but what about natural law? In all things there is a harmony. The food cycle for instance. Predator and prey, if there is a break in the cycle, everything breaks down. Another example is the great barrier reef, or reef eco-systems. The absence of a trace element, the increase in water temp, or UV penetration, can destroy it. Doesn't homesexuality violate the natural law/order of things?

Remember, before I get bashed, exclude all religious, moral, and legal support of this issue you might have. Answer within the context of Natural law.

cloud909

Originally Posted by DSmithZ28

Everyone talks about the Religious objection, ok. The Legal objection, ok, now, the moral objection, ok, but what about natural law? In all things there is a harmony. The food cycle for instance. Predator and prey, if there is a break in the cycle, everything breaks down. Another example is the great barrier reef, or reef eco-systems. The absence of a trace element, the increase in water temp, or UV penetration, can destroy it. Doesn't homesexuality violate the natural law/order of things? Remember, before I get bashed, exclude all religious, moral, and legal support of this issue you might have. Answer within the context of Natural law.

Actually, if the "natural law" issue is what you want to get into, let's do it. Are you really going to state that you believe homosexuality would bring about the downfall of society because of lack of procreation? There are parts of Asia where there are laws regarding how many children you can have, and even what sex. Here in America, there are families who can't support the children that they have because of "too much" procreation. If we're speaking strictly "natural law", then homosexuality is the most helpful thing in certain parts of the world, being that it's helping to make sure that families don't go hungry and that there isn't an overpopulation problem.

Not only that, but there are many straight families in Alabama, Ohio and Florida who need some better fashion sense

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pdahound

The only thing that homosexuality violates is the beliefs of the person who doesn't think it is right.

reese

Originally Posted by pdahound

I don't generally bash religions. Some I believe, some I don't. Where do morals come from? Are they not mostly religious based?

Do athiests believe it is wrong to kill? what about stealing? are these not moral issues???

DSmithZ28

I absolutely knew that would be your come back.

Originally Posted by cloud909

Actually, if the "natural law" issue is what you want to get into, let's do it.

Why so angry? tsk tsk, it's your way of life, I just asked a question!

Quote:

Are you really going to state that you believe homosexuality would bring about the downfall of society because of lack of procreation? There are parts of Asia where there are laws regarding how many children you can have, and even what sex. Here in America, there are families who can't support the children that they have because of "too much" procreation.

This is a legal issue, not natural law.

Quote:

If we're speaking strictly "natural law", then homosexuality is the most helpful thing in certain parts of the world, being that it's helping to make sure that families don't go hungry and that there isn't an overpopulation problem.

So what you are saying is that to end starvation and over population, we should all jump sexuality ships and put up a Rock Hudson poster? I was going to grow a few more tomatoes in my garden, but if that's what you think.

Quote:

Not only that, but there are many straight families in Alabama, Ohio and Florida who need some better fashion sense

Great come back, you failed in every attempt to answer my question or expand on it's concept. I guess natural law will enforce dress codes for us all. I better go by something from armoni so I can fit in.

BradleyUffner

Originally Posted by DSmithZ28

Doesn't homesexuality violate the natural law/order of things?

Nope, I've had dogs and rabbits that did it.

cloud909

Originally Posted by DSmithZ28

I absolutely knew that would be your come back. Why so angry? tsk tsk, it's your way of life, I just asked a question!

Not angry... frustrated with one's stupidity, yes... but angry, no. Unlike what most evangelistic Christians would like to believe, anger doesn't solve anything. It just makes an already negative issue worse.

Originally Posted by DSMITHZ28

This is a legal issue, not natural law.

No, the fact that it has to do with natural law has progressed into certain governments to take it into their own hands, creating a legal issue. If you were capable of any type of comprehension beyond the bible (and even that is questionable), you would have realized that's what I was saying. The fact that natural law (ie, overpopulation) is getting out of hand led to the installation of a "legal law."

Originally Posted by DSMITHZ28

So what you are saying is that to end starvation and over population, we should all jump sexuality ships and put up a Rock Hudson poster? I was going to grow a few more tomatoes in my garden, but if that's what you think.

Obviously, the solution to hunger and overpopulation isn't for the majority of the population to switch sexual orientations (which wouldn't be possible, anyway, since we've already established that it's not a choice... and you're leaving religion out of this conversation, right?)... but since you asked us to speak of "natural law", then maybe nature's partial solution to overpopulation is/was homosexuality; let people love without permitting them to procreate.

Originally Posted by DSMITHZ28

Great come back, you failed in every attempt to answer my question or expand on it's concept. I guess natural law will enforce dress codes for us all. I better go by something from armoni so I can fit in.

First off, it's Armani, not armoni... but I'll forgive you for that... I realize you probably feel much more at home in flannel and blue jeans. However, I hardly failed in "every" attempt, let alone any attempt, to answer your question. You, however, cannot comprehend English, let alone speak it. :approve:

Way to go, pal!

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Martin

Please debate whatever you like, but do so in a civil fashion and, specifically, do not attack anyone personally for their beliefs or thoughts. Name calling, slagging matches, etc, are rarely productive and are certainly not what Aximsite is all about.

Cheers.

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jpmarth

Originally Posted by tabten5

Please debate whatever you like, but do so in a civil fashion and, specifically, do not attack anyone personally for their beliefs or thoughts. Name calling, slagging matches, etc, are rarely productive and are certainly not what Aximsite is all about. Cheers.

Thank for for this post tabten. It appears that some members are not interested in contributing to the discussion, but merely throwing insults. :headshake