Of course there is not a god. Why would there be? Bobby suggested earlier on that "...because the universe can be traced back to one event, that event had to be initiated by someone/something." Kind of short-sighted, like the bible. A big bang has oft been postulated, and some have suggested an infinite series of such big bangs. By the 'logic' of the faithful one might have to assume the explosion itself, the regenerative force of all existence, were 'god' - but that is mere anthropomorphization and wishful thinking. Not a lot of animals want to die, suicide going against the survival/reproduction impulse, but an abiding desperation to live does not make an effective argument for a god.
The part in all of this that bothers me the most is the arrogance. The assumptions of connectedness and even a causal link betwixt some sort of all-powerful being and humans seems the ultimate in pretension. This endlessly reiterated drivel indicating some preferred status for us, just another critter which happens to be more adept at manipulating our environment than the rest of the species on this earth, it's grade-school play, just like 'king of the mountain' and other games of superiority. Remember the Church Lady's superiority dance? Believers do it every day in a million different flavours, every one of them unproductive and vain.
And just as with religion I have little patience with the idolatry of science, the pretentious notions of having it all under control now that we know oh so much about how things work. Come on. We're beginners as life forms go. It is rather likely that species a thousand times more intelligent than we have been around since millions of years ago, perhaps billions, and even they would have to acknowledge that there is always something new to learn. Strutting about all full of faith in a god or a methodology of study or whatever, pretending to be almost-there in terms of some kind of final understanding of life, it's just sad.
Get busy and stay busy, working at something which feels rewarding, helping eachother to have a better, happier existence while we live. Could there be a loftier goal? Science helps this a lot, but in a lot of ways hinders well-being too. Community spirit and a cheerful welcoming of one's fellows as having equal rights and obligations can only make life better for all. The whole dualist good and bad thing, compartments for everything and a camp for every belief, it's tired and destructive. Cooperation; that's the way to a healthy and lengthy human participation in this universe.
I happen to like a lot of religious people. There's an old JW lady who has lately made it a mission to come to my door with notes prepared for all the stuff we talked about on her last visit. She makes me smile, and last time she rang the bell I was really disappointed that I had a deadline to meet and could only give her about 20 minutes. I have an uncle who's a respected scholar on Job and some other biblical stories, and I truly enjoy talking with him about whatever. I have another uncle with no faith, a bad attitude, and time for little else but griping and golf. I don't talk with him much, but am polite when I see him. Whoever and whatever their beliefs, people need to be heard and to hear, and to understand that the here and now is what matters. "Everlasting life" is a nice story, one I've enjoyed thinking about since childhood, but counting on it or praying for it seems an awful waste of time.
Extremely well written. Thanks for taking the time to share your beliefs with us. =)
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Doesn't your GOD teach his followers to forgive thy neighbor?
MY GOD does teach that. The bible teaches that. Do you understand this though? I'm a 17 year-old kid that is growing up in a bad place. My school has barely any christians. It is so hard to keep the faith, and the reason I left before, Cloud, was because I get the same argument at home and at school, and it makes me feel worthless because I can't explain why God is the way he is and I can't prove he exists. I dropped out because I couldn't prove it. I dropped out because I felt I let someone down for not being able to prove it. It is so hard to forgive someone who makes you feel worthless.
Are you a christian? Have you tried forgiving someone like that? Let me put a scripture onto this thread for you. Anyone who tells me what my GOD says I should do, and doesn't practice it, or just tells me without any other notion? Listen to this...
'Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me tak the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.'
-Matthew 7:1-5
That comes from the NIV. For people like me who like the regular everyday language, here is the same passage from The Message...
'Don't pick on people, jump on their failures, criticize their faults - unless, of course, you want the same treatment. That critical spirit has a way of boomeranging. It's easy to see a smudge on your neighbor's face and be oblivious to the ugly sneer on your own. Do you have the nerve to say, 'Let me wash your face for you,' when your own face is distorted by contempt? It's this whole traveling road-show mentally over again, playing a holier-than-thou part instead of just living your part. Wipe that ugly sneer off your own face, and you might be fit to offer a washcloth to your neighbor.'
In other words. You tell me to forgive him? Can you do the same? If you cannot, then do not tell me to either.
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Last edited by danielfeveryear; 04-01-05 at 10:26 PM.
touché, stanley. sad part is that you're totally right... everyone is always hopeful that what they believe is what's right. my whole argument, however, is that it upsets me that when i debate with someone regarding religion, there often times seems to be lack of "evidence", if you will, to back up a religious argument... particularly when it's a religion vs. science debate.
Okay, cloud, you help me understand this, please. It upsets you when you debate that there is a lack of evidence to back up the religious arguments? Why can't you see that it upsets me that everytime I debate with someone about the said topic, they cannot come up with evidence supporting the Science? No one has evidence, Cloud. Like I've already said. If you are going to ask for evidence of the religion, then you need to supply evidence of the science in return, or your debate could very well be seen as futile and unfounded when we are trying to tell you there is a God, yet we have no proof, and you can tell us there is no God, and you have no proof. Seems like a Catch 22 for you...
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I just joined and figured I'd jump right into the thick of things. From what I've read it's mostly been a conversation of verbal firecrackers (and sorry in advance if I displease anyone with any of my words :approve: ), but interesting points as well. I'm a Christian myself, a proud chatty and constantly eating Methodist, and I always have been. It's how I grew up.
To reiterate, it may not be fair, in a sense, to simply grow up with that one religion and never be exposed to other options, but I think giving people so many options only leads to confusion, and a loss of faith. Like when one of my best friends goes shopping for shoes, for example. She can never just have one of the cute pairs, she has to have all of them. And coordinating outfits.
Religion can be like that too, ideas are borrowed and combined and all that jazz. It's not just a matter of black and white. Because a certain religion believes certain things doesn't necissarily mean they are right. We're human, we make mistakes. The Bible was written by people. How would people know how the universe was created?
We can hypothesize and theorize all we want, but it just boils down to what we believe. I believe that God, somehow, created the universe. God's version of seven days may be as long as scientists believe evolution took. The same friend mentioned above isn't a Christian, doesn't attend any sort of church, but has a general belief that there is a higher power.
Even though I can't really talk to her about some more personal stuff because of that, I can agree with her. There is a higher power. Even Einstein thought so. It's like a quote from a movie I saw once, "You can't throw a whole bunch of metal and gears into the air and expect a Rolex to fall into place." It seems a bit close-minded to me to say that there's only one or the other--a God or none at all.
Well, that about covers what my brain can come up with at the time (Brain=dead after long post). I hope to see some different beliefs and the like in this thread! *waves at Dan*
Nice post, welcome to Aximsite AshBeanNun! It's not always like this but we do manage to have fun anyway. ;)
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Bobby
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I have been puzzled by the question of origins, as expressed by many defenders of a god's existence state it, since I was maybe 9 or 10 years old. My mother was a Christian, off and on, powerfully so at times. Not she nor anyone I've ever talked to nor read has been able to explain this at all. It comes down to faith, they all say.
The question? Well, Christians and some others say that if there was a beginning to the physical universe, if it has not existed for infinite time already (a difficult concept in itself), then who or what made it begin? We understand things to have beginnings, and that at the time of those origins there must be a creative or generative force. And as our new member suggests with her vivid Rolex example, surely an apparently organized universe must have arisen from an intelligent creator!
But that's my problem, right there. Who made the creator? If the creator (or great power or whatever) had to be there to start the universe, this suggests for one that the creator exists on a related plane, to be able to interact with the physical elements of the objects being assembled. Whether a being of pure energy or of matter or of some as-yet-unnamed by humans sort of manifestation of material things. Maybe god is a gravity-being? It doesn't much matter though the exact nature of such a being. The difficulty remains; how did the god get made? Who made it/him/her?
And of course the argument almost always comes that this is the central miracle of god's existence, that the mystery is sufficient and it is something we mere humans can not understand. Essentially, god was always here. (There has also appeared more rarely the odd argument that god created itself, but this sort of logical loop is too strangely nonsensical to merit serious consideration.) But if god could have been here for infinite time... surely so could the universe, right? Ah, but that's when they turn away and wander off, or change the subject, or fall back on mysteries and faith. Don't look behind the curtain sort of stuff.
And along with all the many other references on god's resume there's always the mention of Einstein having a belief in god, as though that were somehow the ultimate proof, irrefutable, owing to his acknowledged genius. Unfortunately this doesn't wash. Einstein was merely human, not some physicist/saint with miraculous powers to deliver direct knowledge from god. He had some interesting insights, was ahead of many of his contemporaries in terms of broad thinking and flexibility of application in mathematics. Did some good work. He was also very much a product of his culture; a white man in a time when religious domination of home, village, and school life was almost absolute. During his life countless battles were fought over faith, race, property, control... it was a stressful time and some of the horrors could easily lead most to hope of rescue by a higher power. Especially if pre-disposed to such hope by life-long education in faith. One could better argue for Lewis Carroll's faith, lapse, and re-discovery of faith as being proof, as he took a lot more trouble than Albert to examine the nature of belief - at least publicly. But still, no proof, no answer to the main question of origins.
Will anyone answer this? I'd be interested in hearing anything which might rationally explain the difference between an infinite universe and an infinite god. To me, there seems no difference. And since both are equally implausible and god is the more obviously improbable, an eternally-existing physical universe independent of a creator seems the more rational choice. I don't 'believe' in such, only do I see that it is the more sensible of the two.
Last edited by Gerard Samija; 04-02-05 at 01:43 AM.
If you believe in God, then you probably believe in a magical little happy place where everybody goes when they die. Please. We just don't have any proof either which way. I guess you can say I believe in God and in some ways I don't believe in God at all.
What you have to remember is god "is". Existed for infinite time already. It looks hard to understand but it's easier than Schrodinger's Cat. :)
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Bobby
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Sorry, did I push a button? Thought I was being civil...
Not at all Gerard. I don't think I've ever seen an uncivil or disrespectful post from you anywhere. Even if I do disagree with your thoughts on free wifi :)
It's a general comment.
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Shrodinger's cat is just another version of the tree falling in the forest making a sound, or not, according to whether it's heard by a person. What if a bug hears the tree fall, does that count? What if Shrodinger's cat feels its own death, does that count? Or if it hears itself meowing, trying to get out of the box because it didn't die... Clever parlour arguments don't make a god, nor do they go a millimetre towards proving one exists.
To suggest that god just "is" in this context, or in any variety of ontological debate, is to abdicate one's position as a rational apologist and leave the room, effectively. 'One must believe' is an imperative which the opposing viewer sees as giving up reason. Do you wish to argue on the merits of the case for god's existence, or do you want to give up and fall back on rote, received wisdom? I prefer a rational debate. It's more fun, and one always has the chance of learning something.
I've heard a vast number of arguments for god's existence but none have appealed to my need for rational understanding. A leap of faith is about as attractive to me as leaping off a building; it's just not practical. I don't have faith that there will be breakfast ingredients in my cupboard tomorrow morning, I must take a series of purposeful movements in order to procure the money and with that the food, getting it all back and tucked away for when it's needed. In those terms, the everyday sort of terms of understanding, where one needs no faith to have the grocery store be there but only an understanding of how our culture works. Understanding how Christians think the universe works is second-hand information, not applicable to my mind nor likely to inspire a leap to the side of logic and onto the path of surrendered intellect.
An aside, and strictly meant as a very little question without venom in it at all - has anyone else noticed over the years that as scientists grow close to death they tend more often to begin speaking of god? Fear of the imminent and undesired end inspiring faith, perhaps? Or are my 'figures' off, and the numbers are really a lot closer to even across the age groups? To wit; Hawking seems to be back-pedalling a little on a couple of fronts lately. What's up with that? Is he going to start carting a bible around in a side-pocket of that chair soon?
I was trying to show how close SCIENCE amd FAITH are.
"is" is an accepted term in both philosophy's isn't it?
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Bobby
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Awesome posts and awesome questions. I'm a Christian, and I believe in an eternal, omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent God.
The only answer we can give is that God has always existed and always will exist. The universe had a starting point; as it will also have an ending point in its current form. Both of these are fundamental to our theology. One of the things that has helped me through these thoughts (and admittedly, the concept of eternity scares me sometimes because I can't comprehend it--I have a hard enough time getting up in the morning and getting to bed at night in this temporal existence!) is the idea that God created time...time in its current form wasn't a factor before the creation of the universe. That also helps me to understand why God can be eternal and omniscient...because time doesn't exist to him. It's all "now." I think all those years of Dr. Who polluted my theology.
And the other thing to remember is that the more we learn about science, the more we find that things in the Bible we may have doubted were actually true. Archeology continues to progress, slowly verifying these books and the events that occured. It's pretty amazing. Add to that the unexplainable things like answered prayers and the occasional miracle that just stun the scientific world--not to mention the scope and beauty of creation and to chalk it all to chance...
And the ultimate thing, looking at the empty shell of a human body in death, realizing that although we might even be able to get the physical body going again, that there is that "essence" or "soul" that will never come back...that's the issue with the humanists at the end of life, as well as the old, "there are no atheists in fox holes" mentality.
Yes, faith is necessary, and it is a leap...but really no more than looking around your neighborhood and the general miracle of life to realize that there is NO WAY this was created by chance. Sure, we (as humans) have done our best to mess up the world...but it's still beautiful. And thank God for women!
So, those are some random 1:30am thoughts when I should be in bed. That's my next stop.
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