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Old 04-20-05, 01:39 AM   #46 (permalink)
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Your other post asking about cracking wep was shut down by a site moderator,didn't you get the hint?
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Old 04-20-05, 04:58 AM   #47 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by dude55
Is there a lawyer in the house? I looked over the code and certainly got something totally different out of it. I guess that is why there are so many lawyers around. Here is one location for you all to read your self.

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/1030.html

I know of no federal or state law describing what was quoted above. Can you give example? Is this federal code dealing with hacking, stealing of data, virus's? The main thing is intent. Did one enter the computer/sysem with the intent of doing harm in some matter? That would probably be the question as to if a law was broken or not. Like shouting fire in a crowed movie house is against the law because of the intent of the action (causing panic) even though one has freedom of speech here in the US.
Section 5(A)(ii) & (iii) are relevant for our purposes, I believe:

ii) intentionally accesses a protected computer without authorization, and as a result of such conduct, recklessly causes damage; or
(iii) intentionally accesses a protected computer without authorization, and as a result of such conduct, causes damage; and (causes $5000 damage, or loss of life, etc).

So, as you say, it's not a strict liability offence. The defendant must have the intention (mens rea) to access a protected computer. I hasten to add that the above interpretation of your federal law is not mine. I'm not well-versed enough in your laws to analyse it effectively. Howwever, your question of "did someone enter the computer/system with the intent of doing harm in some matter" is almost certainly satisfied by the above. Given the strict line most courts have taken on cyber-crimes in recent years, one could argue that the law would be applicable in substance, if perhaps not in form.
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Old 04-20-05, 06:22 AM   #48 (permalink)
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Let's not forget that the Internet is not JUST in the good ole US of A.

Different states within the US might have different ruleings (and probably do) and different countries have different rules too.

In Canada is IS illegal. Although currently downloading music via P2P appears to be legal.
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Old 04-20-05, 06:35 AM   #49 (permalink)
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Has anyone been charged for benign surfing? How about convictions?
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Old 04-20-05, 07:34 AM   #50 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Howard2k
Although currently downloading music via P2P appears to be legal.
Is that downloading commercial music where permission hasn't been granted by the artist or record company, etc? If so, surely that is a copyright infringement.
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Old 04-20-05, 07:44 AM   #51 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by tabten5
Is that downloading commercial music where permission hasn't been granted by the artist or record company, etc? If so, surely that is a copyright infringement.
Downloading is legal, but uploading is illegal.
Here is an article titled Canada deems P2P downloading legal
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Old 04-20-05, 07:55 AM   #52 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by jmckie
Downloading is legal, but uploading is illegal.
Here is an article titled Canada deems P2P downloading legal
Blimey.

I didn't realise Canada weren't even members of WIPO yet. However, it looks as though the leash will be tightened in the spring when the Canadian Copyright Act is amended.

Too right!
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Old 04-20-05, 08:38 AM   #53 (permalink)
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It's silly, and I don't agree with it, but right now based on the interpretations so far it is legal.

I like to think that I respect music copyright 99.9% of the time ("respect" it, but I'm not going to say that I've NEVER downloaded from Kazaa for example) but on the other side of the coin, if I was to purchase a brand new iPod here in Canada there is a $25 surcharge that goes to the Canadian equivalent of the RIAA (CRIA??) that is meant EXPRESSLY for compensating artists for loss of revenues. This surcharge predates the P2P explosion, but so far has been deemed as being relevant.

Blank CDs, MP3 players etc. all have this variable surcharge added.

So right now it appears to be legal, but I doubt that it will last. I would be happy to see a reduction in price on blank media and audio players in exchange for losing my "right" to download crappy quality, inconsistent bitrate lousy sound checked music from unreliable P2P connections :)
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Old 04-20-05, 08:41 AM   #54 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by jmckie
Has anyone been charged for benign surfing? How about convictions?
Not that I know of. In reality it would be a waste of tax payer money to go and prosecute someone for using a stranger's wifi to check their email.

On the other hand, there has been talk of the operator of the network being responsible for what is downloaded. So if you leave your network open and someone downloads kiddie porn you could be responsible. Not sure if that'll stick.
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Old 04-20-05, 08:46 AM   #55 (permalink)
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I have another type of question on wardriving.

I recognize that some people enjoy doing it and I respect that. I was intrigued by the concept as a fun geeky and techy kind of thing to do.

So when I got my Axim, Wififofum and my GPS together, I went and tried it for myself. And I got bored within 15 minutes.

So I have a serious question. Am I missing the point? What am I not doing makes it fun? What is the attraction? Is there more to it than hearing the device chime when a new AP is detected? I am not trying to disparage wardriving or its proponents, I just want to understand.
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Old 04-20-05, 08:46 AM   #56 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Howard2k
It's silly, and I don't agree with it, but right now based on the interpretations so far it is legal.

I like to think that I respect music copyright 99.9% of the time ("respect" it, but I'm not going to say that I've NEVER downloaded from Kazaa for example) but on the other side of the coin, if I was to purchase a brand new iPod here in Canada there is a $25 surcharge that goes to the Canadian equivalent of the RIAA (CRIA??) that is meant EXPRESSLY for compensating artists for loss of revenues. This surcharge predates the P2P explosion, but so far has been deemed as being relevant.

Blank CDs, MP3 players etc. all have this variable surcharge added.

So right now it appears to be legal, but I doubt that it will last. I would be happy to see a reduction in price on blank media and audio players in exchange for losing my "right" to download crappy quality, inconsistent bitrate lousy sound checked music from unreliable P2P connections :)
Well said, Howard. :) I read this article on the above, but don't really agree with the learned gentleman. Apart from anything else, those people that do buy products which are levied may have no intention of downloading music, and are thus being charged for other peoples' practices. The loss of the download "right" doesn't appear to have damaged places like the UK; far from it, in fact, and Top of the Pops for the first time last week included the Download Chart in the Main Top 20 Chart. As long as the industry embraces legal downloading, then there can be no room or tolerance for downloading music files that are an infringement of someone's copyright.
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Old 04-20-05, 08:55 AM   #57 (permalink)
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The reference to the file sharers in that article (29 of them that the CRIA demanded the identities of) is being reviewed today (literally) I believe. I think I saw it on one of the elevator news screens.

And here it is:
http://www.cbc.ca/story/arts/nationa...wap050419.html

No quotes, since I don't want to drag the whole thing TOO far off topic :)
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Old 04-20-05, 09:01 AM   #58 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by jmckie
I have another type of question on wardriving.

I recognize that some people enjoy doing it and I respect that. I was intrigued by the concept as a fun geeky and techy kind of thing to do.

So when I got my Axim, Wififofum and my GPS together, I went and tried it for myself. And I got bored within 15 minutes.

So I have a serious question. Am I missing the point? What am I not doing makes it fun? What is the attraction? Is there more to it than hearing the device chime when a new AP is detected? I am not trying to disparage wardriving or its proponents, I just want to understand.
Good question. I think many people just like to see the invisible net of Internet that surrounds them. Plus it's nice to know how geeky your neighbours are :)
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Old 04-20-05, 12:07 PM   #59 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by jmckie
I have another type of question on wardriving.

I recognize that some people enjoy doing it and I respect that. I was intrigued by the concept as a fun geeky and techy kind of thing to do.

So when I got my Axim, Wififofum and my GPS together, I went and tried it for myself. And I got bored within 15 minutes.

So I have a serious question. Am I missing the point? What am I not doing makes it fun? What is the attraction? Is there more to it than hearing the device chime when a new AP is detected? I am not trying to disparage wardriving or its proponents, I just want to understand.
Well, for me anyway, I simply enjoy collecting the data, and then finding different ways to represent the data.

  • I have used my logs to map points on a satellite map of my city (older, but here: http://www.perldev.org/wireless/).
  • I have drawn graphs of vendor types, wep/non wep, and AP names.
  • I have entered all the AP points into POI's so I can see them in TomTom Navigator.
  • I have all the AP's collected and entered into a MySQL DB.
Now, this is fun for me but maybe not for you or someone else.

Happy wardriving!
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Old 04-20-05, 12:29 PM   #60 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by jmckie
Now let's say I was hacked through my AP (a Dlink router). What kind of things can the hacker do to me? So they can surf the web at my expense. Can they do something nasty, like copy my Quicken file? Can they plant a Trojan on my hard drive? Can they copy my Outlook mailbox?

Basically now they are plugged into your network just as if they had taken one of the wires out of your computer and put it into theirs. It really depends on what you share on your network (E.g the root of your C)

To me, an uprotected wireless network can be compared to leaving a network cable outside your house with a large sign next to it saying "Access my network by using this cable!!!", putting WEP on is like the above but with varying strengths of padlock (256-Bit Padlock :approve: ). Disabling SSID Broadcasting with WEP is like having an invisible network cable outside your house without the sign :)


Yes its a crazy analongy
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