WM 5.0 Persistent Storage Flash Lifetime

ShaunLeeClarke · 10-07-05, 02:53 AM

With the new persistent storage feature of WM 5.0, is anyone concerned with the fact that flash ROM only has a limited number of write cycles, and that they could shorten their PDA's lifespan by using ROM for storage as opposed to RAM?

I know that it is quoted to be up to 250,000 write cycles, but I just don't like the idea of knowing that everytime I add a contact, or install a program that I am wearing out my PDA.

There was a bit of a discussion on this topic
here, which discusses some of the ways this is being avoided.

And I know storage cards are the same, but you can eaasily replace a storage card, you cant exactly replace your ROM.

Just wondering what others think of this.

10-07-05, 04:22 AM

250,000 write cycles is actually quite a bit of write time. Every time you move a file it is not necessarily re-writing a specific block. It may just leave it as it for the new data.

If I remember correctly it's about 5 years of use for the average user...(not continuous use)

gamekill · 10-07-05, 08:40 PM

This is a total FCKK UP! I mean, I simply CAN'T plan on having my X50v with me for years to come? I *DO* know Pocket PCs will be FAR better 5 years from now, and I will probably have some new device by then, BUT, I love having my old stuff in full working condition! My current PC is an Athlon XP "3800+" (2500+ oc'ed) but I love my old 486 with it's 14" vga monitor fully working with Monkey Island and stuff installed on it. My old NES and Genesis videogame consoles still work, even though I play Gamecube and Dreamcast games most of the time. But it seems my X50v will be just a MEMORY 5 years from now? AAAAAAAAAAARGH!!!!!!!!!

10-07-05, 08:45 PM

Originally Posted by ShaunLeeClarke

And I know storage cards are the same, but you can eaasily replace a storage card, you cant exactly replace your ROM.

storage cards (sd,cf) have a limited amouts of writes?

STi Sev · 10-07-05, 09:59 PM

gamekill,

ShaunLeeClarke · 10-08-05, 01:04 AM

Originally Posted by tancerman

storage cards (sd,cf) have a limited amouts of writes?

Unfortunately, yes. Any flash based memory storage (sd/cf cards, BIS, flash drives etc.) can only be written to a certain number of times before it 'wears out'.

Although I should also point out that a single bad block on your card doesn't render it useless, that area is marked as unusable and you can still use the rest of the card.

However storage cards can easily and cheaply be replaced if you do manage to wear one out (and you don't lose it first), but the ROM in a PDA cannot simply be replaced.

gamekill · 10-09-05, 08:00 PM

OK I can only think of 2 ways out to keep my X50v alive after the BIS goes dead. Please tell me if any of these is possible:

1- Install WM5 onto an SD or CF card (I don't think so though);

2- Rollback to WM2003 SE, and only use SD and CF cards for storage (more likely doable)?

:hide:

axim_wannabe · 10-09-05, 08:32 PM

then maybe having persistent storage isnt all as good as it seems?

10-09-05, 08:33 PM

The BIS is the same as where the ROM is kept, just a different partion I believe, if it goes dead you will have a dead device.

**ksong12** · 10-09-05, 08:41 PM

Originally Posted by Ken S

The BIS is the same as where the ROM is kept, just a different partion I believe, if it goes dead you will have a dead device.

nope, thats not true, its the difference between a harddisk and ram in your computer. however, you cannot rollback to 2003se nor can you run 2003se with out built in storage. it contains some system files

10-09-05, 08:56 PM

I'm pretty sure it is all the same chip it is not really read only memory since you can reflash it, but I'll wait and let the experts chime in.

ShaunLeeClarke · 10-10-05, 12:35 AM

To clarify some things, the OS and BIS are both stored in the same place, that is, the flash ROM.

As someone said, it's similar to partitions, in that the OS is stored in one read-only 'partition' and user data (BIS) is stored in another 'partition.' This is why BIS is less than 128MB, the rest is reserved for the OS 'partition'.

If your ROM was to completely die, your device would indeed be a brick, although that is unlikely to happen since we don't rewrite the contents of the OS 'partition' very often at all, just when we do a ROM upgrade (A05 etc.), but you could slowly damage the user section of the ROM, especially now that it is the primary space to store user data.

If a section on the ROM was to die (wear out), that area is marked as unusable so that no other data gets written there. Once this section has been marked as unusable, you would have slightly less ROM space available than before. I'm assuming bad data blocks are a few KB each, much like hard drive bad blocks.

As for gamekill's comments, I'm pretty sure you will be able to roll back to WM2003SE, but I don't think it will be necessary, and I doubt it would be possible to install WM to a storage card, although it might be possible to redirect user data such as the contacts database and such to a storage card if it concerns you.

Also don't forget that this problem won't appear for quite a while, and even when sections of the flash ROM go bad, your device won't instantly die, you will still have usable parts in your flash ROM, but it is something to consider I guess.

JDThomas · 10-10-05, 11:02 AM

I have been buying new PDAs every 2-3 years for the last 6 years now. Companies like Handspring have come and gone. The technology changes so much in that time. Hey look at it this way we ourselves have a limited lifetime, if we spent all our time looking toward our own death, how can we enjoy life now? My vote is to look at the bright side, suggest improvement, and hey if the machine you have becomes obsolete for you, its a good incentive to buy that new upgrade, give your old one to someone who can use it or maybe put it in a collection. Just think about this, my first calculator was LED display, a basic keyboard with the 4 (+,-,x,/) keys, and a memory button for $22.00 in 1976. The square root key was $10.00 more. Banks give better units away for free now, the size of a business card. I never dreamed of owning a piece of computer heaven like I do today. Just a reality check .

Xelkos · 10-10-05, 09:14 PM

Originally Posted by JDThomas

I have been buying new PDAs every 2-3 years for the last 6 years now. Companies like Handspring have come and gone. The technology changes so much in that time. Hey look at it this way we ourselves have a limited lifetime, if we spent all our time looking toward our own death, how can we enjoy life now? My vote is to look at the bright side, suggest improvement, and hey if the machine you have becomes obsolete for you, its a good incentive to buy that new upgrade, give your old one to someone who can use it or maybe put it in a collection. Just think about this, my first calculator was LED display, a basic keyboard with the 4 (+,-,x,/) keys, and a memory button for $22.00 in 1976. The square root key was $10.00 more. Banks give better units away for free now, the size of a business card. I never dreamed of owning a piece of computer heaven like I do today. Just a reality check .

This motivational quotation should BE STICKIED!!!!
:approve: I like this guy! :approve:

Some day my Axim X50v will be plaquered and hanging on my wall, next to the 300 baud modem!

RabidWolf · 10-10-05, 09:56 PM

Originally Posted by Xelkos

This motivational quotation should BE STICKIED!!!!
:approve: I like this guy! :approve:

Some day my Axim X50v will be plaquered and hanging on my wall, next to the 300 baud modem!

Ya, back when a baud was a baud, and we had .ini files, and Lotus 123 fit on a floppy! Hahahahaha.
Anyone want a Jornada 548? Or a P66?

Grins,