A policy is a policy, no one is going to disagree with that. The question is, where do you draw the line? Is it your policy to treat esteemed members of this site with special preference and the rest of us with nothing? Take this thread for instance. This thread was closed for obvious reasons. But interestingly enough, the hyperlink to the hacked rom was not removed and was even acknowledged by the person who closed the thread. Will it be taken down now that I've pointed it out, or will it fall on deaf ears? I'm not appealing to anything, it's just curiosity and sense of fairplay that prompted me to point it out.
dvmed: The thread you reference points to this thread. If you meant to point to a different thread, send me a private message with a link to that thread and I will review it and delete any links that shoudl not be there.
There are probably quite a few old threads on this forum that violate the ROM hacking policy. As we moderators find them, we will handle them. I had already asked one user, who was accusing the moderators of not being consistent with this policy, to forward me links to threads that need to be reviewed, but that user never sent me anything. As we become aware of threads with links to hacked ROMs, we will handle them.
julie
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A policy is a policy, no one is going to disagree with that. The question is, where do you draw the line?
This is decided on a case-by-case basis, in the best judgement of the Moderator.
Originally Posted by dvmed
Is it your policy to treat esteemed members of this site with special preference and the rest of us with nothing?
I'll agree with PsionAndy on this one.
Originally Posted by dvmed
Take this thread for instance. This thread was closed for obvious reasons. But interestingly enough, the hyperlink to the hacked rom was not removed and was even acknowledged by the person who closed the thread. Will it be taken down now that I've pointed it out, or will it fall on deaf ears? I'm not appealing to anything, it's just curiosity and sense of fairplay that prompted me to point it out.
You realize of course that you just posted the hyperlink to this thread that you are reading now?
If the thread you meant to refer us to did indeed break policy, and no steps were taken before, it's mostly likely because a moderator had not reviewed the entire thread. Additionally, it's hard going back and policing threads that were created on the Aximsite side when me and the other Mobilitysite moderators were never involved.
Post the correct URL, and we'll be happy to look it over.
In the meantime, please show a modicum of respect and stop insinuating that moderators are treating members differently. If you feel we are not looking at "other" threads that are guilty of breaking policy, report them. But don't stand by the wayside and complain. :)
I don't want to get into yet another argument here, but I never mentioned modified ROM dumps. I was talking about direct dumps of Dell's ROMs that have not been modified (hence the word direct again). I don't see any reverse engineering there.
For the purposes of rule enforcement, any manipulation of the OEM ROM file must be considered reverse engineering. We have neither the time nor the inclination to inspect each and every ROM Dump (Direct ROM) to confirm the lack of modification. Therefore, only URLs and discussion about the OEM ROM file will be allowed.
Originally Posted by rohanch
I posted thinking that I wasn't breaking any rules.
And I corrected you. Problem solved.
Originally Posted by rohanch
The main reason for posting a pre-prepared ROM image instead of instructions on how to make one yourself (which appear to have been deleted anyway...) is just because I don't want to make things more complicated for anyone than they need to be.
Talk to Dell and their legal counsel and if they are willing to send you a letter advising that they have no problem with this activity on your part, let us know. I'm sure we can adjust the policy to allow Direct Dumps (Direct ROM images).
Originally Posted by rohanch
Nevertheless, distributing any ROM image without permission from the author (Dell/MS) does appear to be copyright infringement. But that has never occurred on this site, unless people posted ROMs as "attachments".
And yet you are perfectly willing to say "look hard enough and you'll find a Direct ROM (image).
Originally Posted by rohanch
Posting links to such ROMs (hacked or not) is not illegal as far as I'm aware (that's how XDA-Developers gets away with everything).
Untrue. XDA-Developers is based in Russia, and last I heard, both Russia and China are not a part of the World Wide Consortium, which recognizes Intellectual Property laws of the UN. Thus, pirate sites in both countries operate with impunity.
Originally Posted by rohanch
And I don't think there is any law against discussion of anything.
Well technically, discussion of committing a crime is generally referred to a "conspiracy", so discussion about pirated or Hacked ROMs would probably qualify. However, I readily admit that it would be entirely up to the local District Attorney as to whether or not to prosecute.
Originally Posted by rohanch
If this site is genuinely worried about legal trouble, why is it that other clearly illegal topics continue on without any questioning at all? The Widcomm project... (snip by Moderator for brevity)
Please assist us in shutting these posts down by reporting them and other such posts. Steps will be taken...
Originally Posted by rohanch
As dvmed posts, where exactly is Aximsite drawing the line?
Answered this in my previous posting in reply to dvmed.
Originally Posted by rohanch
By the way, "Blackhatting" is malicious hacking. It's usually used to describe hackers who break into websites, cause destruction and steal personal information. That's a rather harsh term to use since no ROM modifying on this site has ever been done in a malicious way.
As you mentioned before, similar hacking practices have deprived other companies of making a profit, thus I feel justified in using the term Blackhatting. However, the context of the reference was that policy breakers were "leaning" towards the blackhatting side, not that they were blackhatters. Certainly you would not classify this work as Whitehatting, would you?
Well, blame me if there's no proof. Isn't it suspicious that a thread created by Menneisyys was spared with the mod's failure to delete the link pointing to the illegal rom. Sorry if you were offended by my post, and if you see my post as insinuating but the decision to spare that link albeit a mod acknowledging it with the thread closing statement doesn't do justice to those threads you immediately close. I am not complaining about anything. And I reiterate, I just pointed it out because of curiosity and sense of fairplay. If that decision (of not deleting the link) of yours was just a mistake, then so be it.
Elrendhel, sounds like a criticism of the moderators that were here before the merger and I would think unfair to the ones who I think took their responsibility as seriously as you appear to.
I know it is offtopic here but in general The moderators here since the merger have really been rather heavy handed in the deletions of posts and threads in a way that really inhibits participation.
Elrendhel, sounds like a criticism of the moderators that were here before the merger and I would think unfair to the ones who I think took their responsibility as seriously as you appear to.
Not at all a criticism. And I've spoken to many of them, so it's a non-issue to them. You appear to be the only one looking at it in a negative fashion.
Originally Posted by harpgliss
I know it is offtopic here but in general The moderators here since the merger have really been rather heavy handed in the deletions of posts and threads in a way that really inhibits participation.
Again, sorry that you feel that way. Oddly enough, it is all because other users who broke "x" rule were cited for it, and in order to "spread the misery" then began complaining about the unfairness of it all when YOU get off scott-free when YOU broke a bunch of rules regarding posting and discussion of Hacked ROMs. Now when we are trying to apply fairness, you complain about another group. It's a rather vicious cycle, and it is predicated solely on the responses instigated by your fellow members.
So if your definition of heavy handed means that we actually hold users accountable for reading and complying with the rules, then there is nothing that can be done to improve the situation. Sorry.
See the new post at the tail-end of that thread for your answer.
If you decided that there is a big differece between Dell's and HP's situation, does that mean you consider the ROM the OP's link is pointing to, "not illegal".
Isn't it suspicious that a thread created by Menneisyys was spared with the mod's failure to delete the link pointing to the illegal rom.
If you wish to file an official complaint about the thread, I will delete it. Chose the "Report" button on the left-hand side of the first post in the thread, and follow the prompts...
And yet you are perfectly willing to say "look hard enough and you'll find a Direct ROM (image).
No. What I said was look hard enough and you will find a link. And I also said in my last post that links are not, as far as I'm aware, illegal.
Originally Posted by Elrendhel
Untrue. XDA-Developers is based in Russia, and last I heard, both Russia and China are not a part of the World Wide Consortium, which recognizes Intellectual Property laws of the UN. Thus, pirate sites in both countries operate with impunity.
Actually, you are wrong here. XDA Developers is based and hosted in the Netherlands. Because you don't seem to know about what I was referencing - basically, XDA Developers received a letter from MS saying distribution of their (modified) ROM files was copyright infringement, please "cease and desist". They removed all ROM files from their forums and posted only links to ROMs hosted on other sites from then on, which appears to be legal, at least in NL.
I'd like to also point out (even though I know it has no legal meaning) that Microsoft only got involved when illegally leaked testing copies of WM6 ROMs were posted there before general release - no contact was made as far as I'm aware when people were simply modifying and posting WM5 ROMs.
Originally Posted by Elrendhel
Well technically, discussion of committing a crime is generally referred to a "conspiracy", so discussion about pirated or Hacked ROMs would probably qualify. However, I readily admit that it would be entirely up to the local District Attorney as to whether or not to prosecute.
It's not discussion about committing a crime I'm talking about though. I agree with Aximsite in the fact that posts about "how to" "hack" ROMs should not be permitted. However, no copyright infringement occurs in flashing a ROM image, or using a hacked ROM (only distribution of copyrighted materials is the crime) so I fail to see how discussing either could be seen as conspiracy to commit copyright infringement or break the law in any way.
Originally Posted by Elrendhel
Please assist us in shutting these posts down by reporting them and other such posts. Steps will be taken...
It's not my responsibility to moderate the site. And more importantly in my view, most of the posts are very helpful and evidently took huge effort to write, so I would hate to see them gone.
While I'd like to prove, what is in my view the absurdity of this whole situation, I'm not going to post direct links to them because I think people would blame me for their deletion, and my intent is absolutely not "you deleted my ROM posts, not fair, so now I'm going to try and get your posts deleted too".
Many have however been previously "approved" by moderators, at least in the fact that they've gained "Sticky" status.
And obviously, if Aximsite wants to go as far as removing posts for potential "conspiracy to commit copyright infringement", many other threads would be subject to editing or removal as well.
Originally Posted by Elrendhel
As you mentioned before, similar hacking practices have deprived other companies of making a profit, thus I feel justified in using the term Blackhatting. However, the context of the reference was that policy breakers were "leaning" towards the blackhatting side, not that they were blackhatters. Certainly you would not classify this work as Whitehatting, would you?
Ignoring the Widcomm and similar projects, I don't think that ROM hacking counts as hacking at all (it's actually just file modification) and therefore can't be given a traditional hacking classification. But if I had to classify modifying ROM images using one of those definitions, it would be much closer to whitehatting than black. Mainly because it is done in the interest of users, has no malicious intent whatsoever and does not cause a financial or emotional loss to anybody, completely unlike blackhatting does.
Originally Posted by Elrendhel
Now when we are trying to apply fairness, you complain about another group. It's a rather vicious cycle, and it is predicated solely on the responses instigated by your fellow members.
Indeed. I think this is the greatest truth of all. If no users of this site had taken the effort of pointing out the illegality of hacked ROMs, we wouldn't even have the no hacked ROMs rule today.
I don't understand the policy of deleting threads "if you make a formal complaint". If a thread has been seen by a moderator, they know whether a thread breaks the rules (and should be dealt with) or it doesn't.
If a thread has been viewed by a moderator and not removed, the only person who should have the right to dictate if it gets removed is the content owner themselves, at least in terms of copyright infringement. I mean if Microsoft sends you a DMCA takedown notice, then yes, of course Aximsite must comply and the content should be removed, but otherwise, it's up to the moderators and not the users to decide.
Otherwise we'll quickly end up in a situation where people will get revenge by launching potentially valid complaints against the threads of others they just don't like.
No. What I said was look hard enough and you will find a link. And I also said in my last post that links are not, as far as I'm aware, illegal.
You are correct. But the end result is the same. Linking to ROMs other than those hosted by the OEM (Dell, HP, etc) is against the rules. Telling someone about it is just as bad.
Originally Posted by rohanch
However, no copyright infringement occurs in flashing a ROM image, or using a hacked ROM (only distribution of copyrighted materials is the crime) so I fail to see how discussing either could be seen as conspiracy to commit copyright infringement or break the law in any way.
Again, please remit this viewpoint to Microsoft Legal Counsel (or Dell legal Counsel) and get them to agree to your viewpoint. Then we can talk about this further.
Originally Posted by rohanch
It's not my responsibility to moderate the site.
That's my point EXACTLY. Thank you for making it for me.
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