I am struggling to understand what is it that this particular forum does that is illegal, as you claim? There is no downloading from this forum, so none of the objectionable software is present. So which laws are being broken?
I don't believe I ever (previously) explicitly stated I believe Chris' decision or the resulting discussion to be illegal, and I certainly did not state that in the excerpt you quoted. That except simply stated that the decision leads others to choose to download illegal ROMs.
However, at the very least the decision is, by my standards, unethical. In addition, I believe any resulting conversations in which members aid in the finding, downloading, and/or installing of illegal ROMs to be illegal. For instance, take New York's definition of 4th degree criminal facilitation:
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A person is guilty of Criminal Facilitation in the Fourth Degree when, believing it probable that he or she is rendering aid to a person who intends to commit a crime, he or she engages in conduct which provides such person with means or opportunity for the commission thereof and which in fact aids such person to commit a felony.
Now, I am not saying that any of this constitutes a '4th degree count of criminal facilitation' in NY or elsewhere. I am simply using that as a generic example of a legal definition of the term "facilitation." However, telling others where to, and how to, download/install illegal ROMs certainly meets that general definition, and facilitation, in most jurisdictions, is a crime in and of itself. (Exact definition, qualifications, etc. vary.)
So, I argue the decision is unethical while the resulting conversations between members is facilitation.
John
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However, telling others where to, and how to, download/install illegal ROMs certainly meets that general definition, and facilitation, in most jurisdictions, is a crime in and of itself. (Exact definition, qualifications, etc. vary.)
John
It most certainly does not meet the definition. In order for the crime to have been committed, it must be proven that intent existed in the mind of the suspect at the time the assistance was provided.
Furthermore, it is a very broad interpretation of "rendering aid" to include posting on an internet forum.
Because someone asks how they can do something, does not prove intent that they plan to do it.
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I don't believe I ever (previously) explicitly stated I believe Chris' decision or the resulting discussion to be illegal, and I certainly did not state that in the excerpt you quoted. That except simply stated that the decision leads others to choose to download illegal ROMs.
However, at the very least the decision is, by my standards, unethical. In addition, I believe any resulting conversations in which members aid in the finding, downloading, and/or installing of illegal ROMs to be illegal. For instance, take New York's definition of 4th degree criminal facilitation:
Now, I am not saying that any of this constitutes a '4th degree count of criminal facilitation' in NY or elsewhere. I am simply using that as a generic example of a legal definition of the term "facilitation." However, telling others where to, and how to, download/install illegal ROMs certainly meets that general definition, and facilitation, in most jurisdictions, is a crime in and of itself. (Exact definition, qualifications, etc. vary.)
So, I argue the decision is unethical while the resulting conversations between members is facilitation.
John
I don't think any half-decent lawyer would argue that people who engage in discussion on where to/how to download WM6 will be subject to criminal sanctions. I certainly wouldn't, anyway.
It is far more likely that the copyright holders will seek to protect their works (under the Berne Convention or the relevant applicable domestic law), and issue a C&D notice to the person hosting the files or (and I think this extremely unlikely) hosting the discussions.
To my mind, at no point in the process have any decisions been taken on the basis of morality. It has been about legality, and business efficacy. Those who point to the contradictory nature of our change in stance are, to my mind, missing the point - Aximsite has never sought to impose some kind of communal morality on its members [although we have tried to keep the forums safe for kids, and thus banned certain topics]. As long as it is legal, and it will not potentially affect the future of the site, then we will allow it. Those two requirements have now been satisfied.
I think this discussion has more or less run its course. The decision as been made, and made in what we feel are the best interests of our members. Those few that disagree with the policy are welcome to ignore all threads relating to WM6 ROMs.
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Furthermore, it is a very broad interpretation of "rendering aid" to include posting on an internet forum.
--> Broad interpretation as written into law by the State of New York as well as many others. Internet postings are not explicitly included, but they are not excluded either. In fact, websites, MySpace pages, and forum postings have all been used as evidence of intent and/or commission of crimes, so it is not far-fetched for such to be counted as a form of facilitation.
Originally Posted by JKooL
Because someone asks how they can do something, does not prove intent that they plan to do it.
--> Very true. However, if someone actually does commit the crime that they asked for help in planning then you have facilitated the crime. The point is you don't know whether or not the other person has the intent to commit the crime, which is why if someone asks you how to kill a spouse and make it look like an accident you don't start listing poisons that don't turn up in autopsies.
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--> Broad interpretation as written into law by the State of New York as well as many others. Internet postings are not explicitly included, but they are not excluded either. In fact, websites, MySpace pages, and forum postings have all been used as evidence of intent and/or commission of crimes, so it is not far-fetched for such to be counted as a form of facilitation.
--> Very true. However, if someone actually does commit the crime that they asked for help in planning then you have facilitated the crime. The point is you don't know whether or not the other person has the intent to commit the crime, which is why if someone asks you how to kill a spouse and make it look like an accident you don't start listing poisons that don't turn up in autopsies.
This guy said to me 'They just found a 1000 lawyers at the bottom of that lake over there, do you know what they call that'? I said 'No I guess I don't. To which he replied 'A good start'!
I think this discussion has more or less run its course. The decision as been made, and made in what we feel are the best interests of our members.
While no common ground or reversal was found in this thread, at least it was clarified that the decision was made in the interests of those who wish to download/use illegal ROMs, not in the interest of ethics, morals, or the spirit of the law. Personally, I believe the future of society is bleak if decisions continue to be made upon covetousness rather than temperance and a sense of right and wrong. Regardless, I agree the discussion has more or less run its course as no common ground can be found, and will now take my leave from this thread.
John
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I guess I can come out of the closet now.:o I flashed every ROM between WM5 A017 and the brand spanking new WM6.1! If there was a legal upgrade, I would purchase it, even if I continued to use hacked ROMS, simply because it would be the right thing to do. I can honestly say that it will take a LOT of software and firmware development to outgrow the X51v hardware, and I am not going to let some moneygrubbing corperation sell me a new device until they exceed the specs of my old device. That said, WM6 for the Ax has gotten better and better.
Chris, I appreciate your decision, and I think the no-hosting rule is good. It keeps Aximsite (the entity) seperate from Aximsite (the users) and will certainly help us avoid trouble if any were to come our way (unlikely if you look at how long XDAdevs has been chilling, and doing what they do)
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While no common ground or reversal was found in this thread, at least it was clarified that the decision was made in the interests of those who wish to download/use illegal ROMs, not in the interest of ethics, morals, or the spirit of the law. Personally, I believe the future of society is bleak if decisions continue to be made upon covetousness rather than temperance and a sense of right and wrong. Regardless, I agree the discussion has more or less run its course as no common ground can be found, and will now take my leave from this thread.
John
I'll make this even more simple, so everything is very clear.
1) To the best of our knowledge, what Aximsite/Mobilitysite is doing is not against the law (phrases like "spirit of the law" are vague and unhelpful).
2) We are not about to enter into a debate on descriptive ethics. It is up to individual members whether or not they want to download, install or discuss such ROMs. It is not mandatory. We are simply allowing that discussion if it does take place. The choice, as it were, is yours.
3) Your rhetoric seems fairly divorced from reality. A large majority of Axim users have already installed WM6 on their device. It seems trite to point out that we are, in practice, doing a greater disservice to members by disallowing discussions altogether than we are by lifting that ban. Aximsite is the place for how to use, or fix, your Axim. How can that be maintained if the majority of users (and almost all power users) are using a platform that cannot be discussed in the forums?
4) As for your sweeping statement,
Quote:
Personally, I believe the future of society is bleak if decisions continue to be made upon covetousness rather than temperance and a sense of right and wrong.
What a load of nonsense. If we take your "argument" to its logical conclusion, then surely it is the members' decision making processes that will be in issue here. If everyone makes decisions on the basis of "temperance and a sense of right and wrong", then it would follow (according to your logic) that there would be no discussion of WM6 on Aximsite. I fail to see how our policy could be equated with a moral floodgates argument. Are you seriously suggesting that because we have provided a forum for WM6 discussions, we are intrinsically responsible for the decision that each person makes to participate in such discussions? If you are, then on that view I would agree: the future is bleak. If we assume, however, the people are not automatons, and can assume responsibility for their own actions, then your argument is fallacious.
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I heard a radio "talking head" say something to the effect of, "If you allow lawyers to run your business, your business is doomed"
The angle he aimed at was that a lawyers job is typically to minimize (legal) risk and as such is always in fear of exposing the business to "risk". However, RISK is what allows a business to take a chance and succeed. The most appropriate method for managing corporate lawyers is to inform them of the direction the business is to go and for them to "Find a way to make it happen"
Obviously much of that is to be taken with a grain of salt, but the concept is to take a reasonable chance and not to fear POSSIBLE or POTENTIAL repercussions... PROBABLE and LIKELY repercussions are another issue...
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i've always understood the site policy about wm6.x but I am now glad that this discussion is opened and I agree with the idea that the site should support users who want to take the best from their Axims. Wm6 is an advance to the axims and been not supported by M$ or Dell just hinder the development and what remains to users is only the informal communication.
What I would suggest is a new section to the site, since the new discussions would take a huge place, for sure.
I did not upgraded to wm6 yet, but I am considering for quite a while, just didn't got the time to read enough about it. I guess I will post my major doubts right away here! :)
--> Broad interpretation as written into law by the State of New York as well as many others. Internet postings are not explicitly included, but they are not excluded either. In fact, websites, MySpace pages, and forum postings have all been used as evidence of intent and/or commission of crimes, so it is not far-fetched for such to be counted as a form of facilitation.
Evidence yes, but remind us again when MySpace was held responsible for the actions of its users? In fact, a recent case has yet again protected MySpace from being blamed for actions of its users.
Originally Posted by mousearoma
--> Very true. However, if someone actually does commit the crime that they asked for help in planning then you have facilitated the crime. The point is you don't know whether or not the other person has the intent to commit the crime, which is why if someone asks you how to kill a spouse and make it look like an accident you don't start listing poisons that don't turn up in autopsies.
Read DMCA, section 230 also known as Safe Harbor law. It address this precise issue and in this particular state directly states that providing room for discussion is not illegal any more than providing internet connection or electricity is for the user.
No need to be looking into any "broad" (mis)understanding of laws, this one has the issue covered, has been contested numerous times and is still in its place.
It would also be nice to understand who the victim of this "illegal/unethical" activity is, seeing how Dell does not produce these devices anymore and Microsoft gets a whole new group dedicated evangelic users. If anything, I would argue that it is unethical to deprive users of ability to upgrade if it does not hurt anyone in the process and improves their experience.
I am glad these forums are out now, since my WM5 experience has been quite painful so far.
It would also be nice to understand who the victim of this "illegal/unethical" activity is, seeing how Dell does not produce these devices anymore and Microsoft gets a whole new group dedicated evangelic users. If anything, I would argue that it is unethical to deprive users of ability to upgrade if it does not hurt anyone in the process and improves their experience.
I am glad these forums are out now, since my WM5 experience has been quite painful so far.
Devil's Advocate:
The answer to this is actually MS would care as if you wanted WM6 (or 7) badly enough you'd buy a new device that contained it, as such the OEM sells a new device and MS gets paid a licensing fee.
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